maxima clam problem

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 01:22 PM

Sorry to post in two forums... This is my first real problem with my reef!!!

My setup:
75 Gallon with 30 gallon sump. 650 watts MH, 440 watts VHO actinic.
Photoperiod VHO on at 7, off at 7:30. 150 watt 20K MH on at 9, off at 6. 500 watt 10 K MH on at 10:30, off at 6:00. sump lights on 24hrs a day

Water: salinity 1..023-1.026. Nitrates- not detectable w/ Salifert, ditto nitrite and ammonia. Calcium ~450, hardness 3.5-4 mgeq (also salifert, confirmed with seatest)-calcium reactor. I do 2 monthly 20% water changes, with rodi water and makeup water is also rodi (plus kalk or arragamite) The regimen hasn't changed for a long time.

pH runs ~8.11 at night to 8.4 in the evening.

Temp around 82

The tank is going on two years old now. I noticed that the oldest clam (a blue t. max) looked funny this morning. Looking in the incurrent siphon, the much of the gills appear to have dissintegrated. The crocea and other maxima look ok. The mantle has never appeared pinched. This clam has been in the tank for about a year now. It recently started moving around on the sand a little and moved about 6" in a couple days, right at the time when a larger astrea snail devided to bulldoze a pocillopora (about a week ago). It fell and hit the clam (I didn't see it fall, just in the morning and a piece of the coral broke off and was on the sand I immediately picked it up and moved it. I don't know if the two events are actually linked, as there was no apparent damage and the calm fully expanded as soon as the coral was off its shell. At first this morning it looked like there was something laying at the bottom of the incurrent siphon, so I picked it up and held it upside down for a little- nothing, I figured I'd try and see if any sand, etc would fall out. The shell shows no signs of the predatory snails...

I placed the little guy back out of harm's way and he opens right up. The incurrent siphon appears to be expanding toward the excurrent.

What should I do? I haven't been able to find any info about this...It is still very responsive to light and other than what I described, looks ok...

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks,
James

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 01:56 PM

One other thing- there's nothing close enough to sting it (other than maybe when the pocillipora fell)- the nearest coral is like 6" away now.

I have no fish that have ever bothered it, although the clowns sometimes swim around the other, larger maxima.

James

***zhenya*** · 02-01-2003, 03:54 PM

James,
I don't think the Pocillopora falling event had anything to do with the problem you have,I don't think it can sting your clam either.It could damage clams mantle by falling on it,but further then that I don't know. You can clearly see damage to the gills?Does it look like predatory damage or it just melting? Do you see any gowth like cysts on the gills( what remains of them anyway).The reason I ask is becouse clams sometime contract infections that can couse damage to the gills.I'm in no way implying that your clam has an infection,just something to check out.The cysts could be found also in the "lateral mantle,in the vicinity of the outer tissue layer attached to the shell" according to Daniel Knop,where he describes infection by Rickettsia.This is the only reference I found regarding gills been affected directly.Sorry for the long post.

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 04:22 PM

Thanks for the response. Yes, I can clearly see that the gills are almost "dissolving" It's really strange. The incurrent siphon is expanding toward the excurrent siphon, something that looks like is also happening on the other maxima. I'm considering a freshwater dip like Minh did with some success in relation to his pinched mantle.

Thanks again,
James

P.S. Thanks for the detailed post (it was by no means too long...)

***zhenya*** · 02-01-2003, 05:14 PM

James,
Sorry I did not pick up on uncurren syphon expanding in your original post.Do you mean that it's increasing in size towards exurent lengts wise?Is the any avidence of tissue discoloration in the mantle or some lighter color spots on it?
I'm looking franticaly trough Daniels book in the disease section and I'm stomped

regarding this.I can find gaping descriptions and other syphon problems symptoms but can't seems to find anything on this length wise increase in size.Sorry I can't be of more help to you and hope some other people with more knowlege pick up on this thread and offer something.I'm really not sure if freshwater dipps are cure all procedure and might just stress clam even more.I would try to email Daniel Knop if no one else respond to this.

**kevinpo** · 02-01-2003, 05:58 PM

A piece of the pocillipora probably broke off and fell into the clam. Sometime the clam recovers and sometimes it doesn't. I do not know of any action that can be taken to check or remove it if it did. Pieces of coral can also get between the mantle and the shell if a coral falls on to the clam.

Of course if your other calms are showing similar symptoms then the above does not apply.

Good luck,
Kevin

***zhenya*** · 02-01-2003, 06:06 PM

Kevin,
I thought about some foreign piece stauck inside also but James did not say anything about this.With the increase in size of the incurrent syphen you culd probably see it if it was there.What are your thoughts on this syphen "tearing"?I never saw this or encounter it myself.And gills just dissolving?What could possibly cause this?

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 06:11 PM

Kevin, I thought about that, too, but don't think there's any pieces of the pocillipora only because there was only one spot that the pocillipora showed signs of breaking and there was a small piece on the sand next to the clam. I saw a post about this not too long ago. It's possible that it fractured in two pieces, one piece went in... If so, I hope it recovers...

Gene, as for the siphon, it's not wide open, it's getting longer, like it's tearing towards the excurrent siphon or something. I checked the books for this, too and was completely at a loss. Do you have an e-mail address for Daniel Knop so that I could send him a message?

Oh yea and as for the "first real problem thing"- there really haven't been any problems other than a firefish jumping out, and the decisions about what bulbs to use, LOL

Once again, thanks for all of your input!!!

James

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 06:19 PM

I was typing my post as you did yours, Gene, LOL! The incurrent is a little wider than it was about a week ago and I can see in that chamber- nothing in there except what looks like some byssal threads. I can't see those in the larger maxima or the crocea.

I'm thinking that it could have been something that came into the system on the newer clam that just took a while to beat down a previously healthy animal. Other than that, all I can say is that it is terrible watching the little guy's gills rot away....

James

***zhenya*** · 02-01-2003, 06:50 PM

James,
I don't have his email unfortunately.However,try to email Barry at clamsdirect ,I have a feeling that he might help you with that.I'm sure Barry talks to Daniel now and then being in the clam business

BTW,I realize that clam was not gaping per se,but it's uncurrent syphon is tearing towards excurrent. I suspect that any organ might sort of melt if it's affected by a patogen or some other bacteria or what have you. It is unfortunate that it's happening to your clam and I'm sorry about it.I had my share of watching in disbelief at the clams going from wonderful to pitiful looking in a few days and tore a few hairs out as well in the proccess.One question James,your newer clam,where did it came from?I mean was it wild caught or farm rased,not that it helps you at this point,just interested as to the origins of the clam.

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 07:06 PM

I'll send Barry an e-mail. Thank you very much...

James

**kevinpo** · 02-01-2003, 07:56 PM

Pocillipora pieces can be very small and hard to see depending on the species. Although they don't have a powerful sting I don't know how sensitive Tridacna sp. gills are.
I also think Barry and Ninong are good people to ask.

Regards,
Kevin

Barry N. · 02-01-2003, 09:00 PM

Hi James,

Just got home and received you e-mail as well as reading this thread.

Gills are very senitive from the articals I have read.

The tearing betweeen the incurrent and excurrent syphom is it all the way through or just the outer layer? If it is just the outer layer, in most cases it will heal.

Gill tissues are thin and delicate and, of course, absolutely necessary for the survival of the animal. Consequently, in all aquatic animals, they are continually cleansed. In mollusks cleaning consists of bathing the gills in a continual flood of mucus. As the mucus flows over the gills any small particles impacting in it are carried down to the bottom of the gills, or through specialized rejection grooves, and dropped off. Gills similar to this basic gill described above are still found in most major molluscan groups. So what you may be seeing is the mucus on the gills.

Is the clam still responsive ?

Barry

Something being introduced in the tank, IMO can not be ruled out.

jsaltzgi · 02-01-2003, 09:13 PM

Yes, the clam is still responsive. I remember just being able to catch a glimpse of the gills every now and then- they were much larger. There are really just two nubs left. I don't think the tear is all the way through. I'll just keep watching and waiting.

Thanks, Barry!!

James

jsaltzgi · 02-02-2003, 07:41 PM

well, the larger maxima is dead now. I just took it out- there was a small piece of some coral inside it- looks like a montipora... The smaller blue one (the one with the tearing mantle) still extends normally and it doesn't look to be getting any worse. Maybe at least it will heal...

The dead one looks inside like it had been decomposing outward for some time, maybe something did come in on it...

James

jsaltzgi · 02-02-2003, 07:43 PM

The crocea still looks healthy as ever. How common is resistance to disease across species, if anyone knows?

James

***zhenya*** · 02-02-2003, 07:46 PM

I am sorry about your loss James

Hope the little one heal up and stay good.

jsaltzgi · 02-02-2003, 07:57 PM

Thanks, me, too!!

James

Barry N. · 02-02-2003, 08:30 PM

James sorry you lost that guy

Barry

jsaltzgi · 02-02-2003, 08:44 PM

Yea, me too. I'm doing a water change now and will put the carbon on tomorrow after I get to the lfs... Until I'm sure I get things straightened out, I'll just keep drooling over the clams on your site!

Thanks again!
James

02-01-2003, 01:22 PM	#1
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	maxima clam problem Sorry to post in two forums... This is my first real problem with my reef!!! My setup: 75 Gallon with 30 gallon sump. 650 watts MH, 440 watts VHO actinic. Photoperiod VHO on at 7, off at 7:30. 150 watt 20K MH on at 9, off at 6. 500 watt 10 K MH on at 10:30, off at 6:00. sump lights on 24hrs a day Water: salinity 1..023-1.026. Nitrates- not detectable w/ Salifert, ditto nitrite and ammonia. Calcium ~450, hardness 3.5-4 mgeq (also salifert, confirmed with seatest)-calcium reactor. I do 2 monthly 20% water changes, with rodi water and makeup water is also rodi (plus kalk or arragamite) The regimen hasn't changed for a long time. pH runs ~8.11 at night to 8.4 in the evening. Temp around 82 The tank is going on two years old now. I noticed that the oldest clam (a blue t. max) looked funny this morning. Looking in the incurrent siphon, the much of the gills appear to have dissintegrated. The crocea and other maxima look ok. The mantle has never appeared pinched. This clam has been in the tank for about a year now. It recently started moving around on the sand a little and moved about 6" in a couple days, right at the time when a larger astrea snail devided to bulldoze a pocillopora (about a week ago). It fell and hit the clam (I didn't see it fall, just in the morning and a piece of the coral broke off and was on the sand I immediately picked it up and moved it. I don't know if the two events are actually linked, as there was no apparent damage and the calm fully expanded as soon as the coral was off its shell. At first this morning it looked like there was something laying at the bottom of the incurrent siphon, so I picked it up and held it upside down for a little- nothing, I figured I'd try and see if any sand, etc would fall out. The shell shows no signs of the predatory snails... I placed the little guy back out of harm's way and he opens right up. The incurrent siphon appears to be expanding toward the excurrent. What should I do? I haven't been able to find any info about this...It is still very responsive to light and other than what I described, looks ok... Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks, James Last edited by jsaltzgi; 02-01-2003 at 02:12 PM.

02-01-2003, 03:54 PM	#3
*zhenya* Owner Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: new jersey,usa Posts: 7,872	James, I don't think the Pocillopora falling event had anything to do with the problem you have,I don't think it can sting your clam either.It could damage clams mantle by falling on it,but further then that I don't know. You can clearly see damage to the gills?Does it look like predatory damage or it just melting? Do you see any gowth like cysts on the gills( what remains of them anyway).The reason I ask is becouse clams sometime contract infections that can couse damage to the gills.I'm in no way implying that your clam has an infection,just something to check out.The cysts could be found also in the "lateral mantle,in the vicinity of the outer tissue layer attached to the shell" according to Daniel Knop,where he describes infection by Rickettsia.This is the only reference I found regarding gills been affected directly.Sorry for the long post. __________________ Kind regards, Gene.

02-01-2003, 05:14 PM	#5
*zhenya* Owner Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: new jersey,usa Posts: 7,872	James, Sorry I did not pick up on uncurren syphon expanding in your original post.Do you mean that it's increasing in size towards exurent lengts wise?Is the any avidence of tissue discoloration in the mantle or some lighter color spots on it? I'm looking franticaly trough Daniels book in the disease section and I'm stomped regarding this.I can find gaping descriptions and other syphon problems symptoms but can't seems to find anything on this length wise increase in size.Sorry I can't be of more help to you and hope some other people with more knowlege pick up on this thread and offer something.I'm really not sure if freshwater dipps are cure all procedure and might just stress clam even more.I would try to email Daniel Knop if no one else respond to this. __________________ Kind regards, Gene.

02-01-2003, 05:58 PM	#6
kevinpo Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Spokane Valley WA Posts: 2,460	A piece of the pocillipora probably broke off and fell into the clam. Sometime the clam recovers and sometimes it doesn't. I do not know of any action that can be taken to check or remove it if it did. Pieces of coral can also get between the mantle and the shell if a coral falls on to the clam. Of course if your other calms are showing similar symptoms then the above does not apply. Good luck, Kevin __________________ SPSguy On - On

02-01-2003, 06:06 PM	#7
*zhenya* Owner Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: new jersey,usa Posts: 7,872	Kevin, I thought about some foreign piece stauck inside also but James did not say anything about this.With the increase in size of the incurrent syphen you culd probably see it if it was there.What are your thoughts on this syphen "tearing"?I never saw this or encounter it myself.And gills just dissolving?What could possibly cause this? __________________ Kind regards, Gene.

02-01-2003, 01:56 PM	#2
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	One other thing- there's nothing close enough to sting it (other than maybe when the pocillipora fell)- the nearest coral is like 6" away now. I have no fish that have ever bothered it, although the clowns sometimes swim around the other, larger maxima. James

02-01-2003, 04:22 PM	#4
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	Thanks for the response. Yes, I can clearly see that the gills are almost "dissolving" It's really strange. The incurrent siphon is expanding toward the excurrent siphon, something that looks like is also happening on the other maxima. I'm considering a freshwater dip like Minh did with some success in relation to his pinched mantle. Thanks again, James P.S. Thanks for the detailed post (it was by no means too long...)

02-01-2003, 06:11 PM	#8
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	Kevin, I thought about that, too, but don't think there's any pieces of the pocillipora only because there was only one spot that the pocillipora showed signs of breaking and there was a small piece on the sand next to the clam. I saw a post about this not too long ago. It's possible that it fractured in two pieces, one piece went in... If so, I hope it recovers... Gene, as for the siphon, it's not wide open, it's getting longer, like it's tearing towards the excurrent siphon or something. I checked the books for this, too and was completely at a loss. Do you have an e-mail address for Daniel Knop so that I could send him a message? Oh yea and as for the "first real problem thing"- there really haven't been any problems other than a firefish jumping out, and the decisions about what bulbs to use, LOL Once again, thanks for all of your input!!! James

02-01-2003, 06:19 PM	#9
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	I was typing my post as you did yours, Gene, LOL! The incurrent is a little wider than it was about a week ago and I can see in that chamber- nothing in there except what looks like some byssal threads. I can't see those in the larger maxima or the crocea. I'm thinking that it could have been something that came into the system on the newer clam that just took a while to beat down a previously healthy animal. Other than that, all I can say is that it is terrible watching the little guy's gills rot away.... James

02-01-2003, 06:50 PM	#10
*zhenya* Owner Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: new jersey,usa Posts: 7,872	James, I don't have his email unfortunately.However,try to email Barry at clamsdirect ,I have a feeling that he might help you with that.I'm sure Barry talks to Daniel now and then being in the clam business BTW,I realize that clam was not gaping per se,but it's uncurrent syphon is tearing towards excurrent. I suspect that any organ might sort of melt if it's affected by a patogen or some other bacteria or what have you. It is unfortunate that it's happening to your clam and I'm sorry about it.I had my share of watching in disbelief at the clams going from wonderful to pitiful looking in a few days and tore a few hairs out as well in the proccess.One question James,your newer clam,where did it came from?I mean was it wild caught or farm rased,not that it helps you at this point,just interested as to the origins of the clam. __________________ Kind regards, Gene.

02-01-2003, 07:06 PM	#11
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	I'll send Barry an e-mail. Thank you very much... James

02-01-2003, 07:56 PM	#12
kevinpo Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Spokane Valley WA Posts: 2,460	Pocillipora pieces can be very small and hard to see depending on the species. Although they don't have a powerful sting I don't know how sensitive Tridacna sp. gills are. I also think Barry and Ninong are good people to ask. Regards, Kevin __________________ SPSguy On - On

02-01-2003, 09:00 PM	#13
Barry N. Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,034	Hi James, Just got home and received you e-mail as well as reading this thread. Gills are very senitive from the articals I have read. The tearing betweeen the incurrent and excurrent syphom is it all the way through or just the outer layer? If it is just the outer layer, in most cases it will heal. Gill tissues are thin and delicate and, of course, absolutely necessary for the survival of the animal. Consequently, in all aquatic animals, they are continually cleansed. In mollusks cleaning consists of bathing the gills in a continual flood of mucus. As the mucus flows over the gills any small particles impacting in it are carried down to the bottom of the gills, or through specialized rejection grooves, and dropped off. Gills similar to this basic gill described above are still found in most major molluscan groups. So what you may be seeing is the mucus on the gills. Is the clam still responsive ? Barry Something being introduced in the tank, IMO can not be ruled out. __________________ Barry ClamsDirect.Com

02-01-2003, 09:13 PM	#14
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	Yes, the clam is still responsive. I remember just being able to catch a glimpse of the gills every now and then- they were much larger. There are really just two nubs left. I don't think the tear is all the way through. I'll just keep watching and waiting. Thanks, Barry!! James

02-02-2003, 07:41 PM	#15
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	well, the larger maxima is dead now. I just took it out- there was a small piece of some coral inside it- looks like a montipora... The smaller blue one (the one with the tearing mantle) still extends normally and it doesn't look to be getting any worse. Maybe at least it will heal... The dead one looks inside like it had been decomposing outward for some time, maybe something did come in on it... James

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02-02-2003, 07:43 PM	#16
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	The crocea still looks healthy as ever. How common is resistance to disease across species, if anyone knows? James

02-02-2003, 07:46 PM	#17
*zhenya* Owner Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: new jersey,usa Posts: 7,872	I am sorry about your loss James Hope the little one heal up and stay good. __________________ Kind regards, Gene.

02-02-2003, 07:57 PM	#18
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	Thanks, me, too!! James

02-02-2003, 08:30 PM	#19
Barry N. Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,034	James sorry you lost that guy Barry __________________ Barry ClamsDirect.Com

02-02-2003, 08:44 PM	#20
jsaltzgi Reef/ SPS Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Columbus,OH,43081 Posts: 144	Yea, me too. I'm doing a water change now and will put the carbon on tomorrow after I get to the lfs... Until I'm sure I get things straightened out, I'll just keep drooling over the clams on your site! Thanks again! James

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