Mixed Angels

[BILL]

I have been looking at Angel fish and have narrowed my choices to a French, Emperor or Queen. I was wondering if I went with juveniles in about the 3" size I could put these guys together in a 180 to 220 gallon tank with about 175 to 200 pounds of LR for hiding places or at least put two of them together.
I don't think I can decide between the Emperor and the Queen but I can part with the French. I plan on having other fish as well but I'm hoping to have these as the focal point. BILL

[reefland]

I think if you put them in at the same time, that there shouldn't be a problem. What are the other habitants of the tank? What do you plan to feed the Angels?

[BILL]

Reefland,
Other inhabitants: I'm hoping on a few anemone fish-tomato & percula, A few Long-fin bannerfish, at least one tang- yellow or powder blue and a few damsels.
Also hoping to move all my crabs, shrimp, and other non-fishes from my 55 into the bigger tank and open the 55 for a darwf lion.
Feeding: I know in the wild they are sponge/coral eaters. In my research I have read young angels can be taught to eat prepared foods. I also have a 20 gallon tank laying around that I hope to grow my own marine greens for them. I do worry about what will happen when they get big. Will I have problems then? My kids dentist has a emperor angel at his office now and the tank he has I can say is not kept up like I keep mine. I have heard that the emperor has a mediocre living record but everytime we go that angel is still going. I have seen a lot of beautiful animals lost in that tank.
Anything else I should be aware of that I have missed.

[reefland]

It sounds like you have done your research. I do however disagree with Emperor Angels being short lived. Angels IMO are one of the hardy saltwater fish, and have a very good success rate. I aso beleive that if you can get the angels to eat prepared food while they are juvies, there is no reason why they can't continue to eat it as adults, so long as it meets their dietary requirements.

When do you plan to get the dwarf lion?

Just in case you wonder, DON'T feed Charlie goldfish feeders or such, they cause lipids builup inthe fish liver. Get Charlie used to silversides and 'dead' food, always on the meaty (protein) side.

This is a quote from Joaco on another message posted here regarding a Volitan. I thought that you may be interested in it.


[This message has been edited by reefland (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Joaco]

Hmm, I wouldn't call big growing Angels hardy SW fish, especially as they grow closer to adults. You have to expect a Queen Angel to live 30-35 years in your tank...(I have a Queen Angel)

Let me answer this questions with more time tonight or tomorrow, I'm in a rush right now

Joaco

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Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 10th May 2000

[BILL]

Reefland,
I'm hoping to start ordering stuff to set up the larger tank around October of this year. Since this is going to be my last major up-grade (I say "last" to make the Wife happy) I'm taking my time and making sure where I want to go with this hobby.
I still have my 90 gallon freshie that I wanted to go Reef with but it hard to get any corals here and I'm not a fan of mail ordering livestock.
Right now I'm researching every detail down to the way I'm going to support my floor so I'll be bouncing a lot of things around. The Lion is not in the plans until next year but I will get one. The Lion is the main reason I went salt. BILL

[Joaco]

Bill,
there is an article by Bob Fenner in the March 2000 issue of FAMA about Angelfishes, family Pomacanthidae, page 92, (2 parts).

Your two main (but not only) concerns with Angels would be:

*water quality: has to be close to perfect, especially very low nitrates. Angels tend to stop eating with low water quality, and this is to often the start of the end...

*feeding: the diet of Pomacanthus species consists principally of sponges as adults, and they need a good diet or may develop HLLE (head and lateral line erosion)

According to Bob Fenner in that article, 'this is another reason to get a small individual and train it to accept aquarium fare.'

Pomacanthus paru is the French Angel, and Pomacanthus imperator is the Emperor Angel. Personally, I would stay away from Emperor Angels.

I would go either with the Queen Angel (Holocanthus ciliaris), according to Bob one of the 'good' Angels, or the French Angel, according to Bob, a close second 'starter' Angel after the Koran Angel Pomacanthus semicirculatus.


About Queen Angels:
Let me quote 'Heinrich' who pointed it out very nice and with whom I agree:

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'Let me share some vital info with you. These fish get large. We are talking 18" from the snout to the caudal peduncle/fleshy part of tail fin. So with streamers at least 24"
Minimum tank sizes for a juvenile 2" 100g, sub adult 9"+/- 180g, adult 300g+
In captivity they can reach an age of 35 years and they will get to the status of pet very soon. I've had a queen 9 years ago that is now in a public aquarium but seldomly will they take them from hobyists, because they house them improperly. Queen angels show stress less than do other angels at times but it affects them just as much. Especially to small a tank will result in stunting, which is improper development of tissue and internal organs as well as deteriorating muscle tissue. This will lead to a shortende life and sooner or later to problems with disease, and other ailments.
Water quality and nutrition are of key importance as well as no stressful tankmates such as triggers.
Nitrates need to be kept below 15-20ppm at all times, this is total ionic nitrogen, which is 4.4 times higher than atomic nitrogen.
pH stable, no nitrites and especially ammonia. Get the specimen small and adapt it to captive foods in the quarantine.
Have plenty of swimming space and large caves as well as grazing. Also provide a large cave where the fish can sleep at night and swim in when it wants. Provide swimming are where the fish can retreat without being seen. So set up your tank properly first before getting the specimen. Also quarantine.
Good foods I currently feed my 5" queen that is in her 85 quarantine is:

Vibragro, Spirulina Flake, hikari pellets(very little they don't like them a lot but got them free and are very nutritious), spectrum pellets, OSI flake, freezedried krill, Ocean nutrition Flakes formula 1&2 and nori. These are fed via an automatic timer three times a day only since this is the small q-tank 4-5 times a day when there in the main tank.
Frozen food: Formula 1&2, spirulina, VHP and lots of Angelformula, Prime Reef, Mysis Shrimp, Grammularus shrimp, cockels, fish roe, brineshrimp, krill, shirmp, plankton, clams, oysters, silversides, pygmy formula, sea urchin, crab meat and whatever else is on sale at the fish store. Excess seafood will be mixed with gel binder into food with vitamins, HUFFA enrichment and variety or frozen and dry foods.
Live food: brine shrimp, hatched amphipods and mysis, lots of algae is the most important thing for long term upkeep. And I mean enough that there is always some type of macroalgae present in the system. Good species are Gracillaria red and green, Ulva (sea Lettuce), caulerpa, saragassum weed, etc. Live oysters, clams, sponges cultured sps. Since they only eat some types, muscles and sometimes live blackworms (treat, not nutritious)
Frozen foods are fed once to twice a day. Live foods every other day or so, appart from algae which should be there on demand, continously.

So important are sufficient feedings, both quantity, variety and quality. Else the fish become aggressive, and bother other livestock and do not develop properly.
Important are also supplementarty vitamin additions Zoe soaked for 24hrs and HUFA Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acids.
It is a very good idea to grow macroalgae in the tank and preferably in a refugium to get enough quantity to support the fish and waste. A refugium helps recycle waste back into usable food and can help cut down on the need for feeding. Remember a lot of people can do decently for a year or two but that's pretty bad for a life expectancy of around 30-35years. So now you know some of the requirements so please act acordingly.
These are ideals but hopefully this is what you want to supply you're pet with.
Remember aggresive fish will continously stress out the angel and will soon result in problems. Especially triggeers and angles simply don't mix unless you have a huge tank. 300g+++++++
Appart from that they are absolutely great pets. Very curious and inteligent and come up to great you and eat out of your hand. Very, very rewarding and why I decided to get as involved as I did with marine angels.'
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Hope this helps

Joaco

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Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 27th May 2000

[BILL]

Joaco,
Double thanks for the info. You had so much I kicked my printer on to save it.
I am a big fan of Mr. Fenner. For the last 6 months his book has become a part of my hand.
If you don't mind-- before I make any purchase I will let you know and fill you in.
One more Question- You mentioned "FAMA" is this a magazine for the Saltwater Hobby? If so, How can I get it? If not, is there one out there? BILL

[reefland]

Freshwater and Marine Aquarium Magazine @ http://www.mag-web.com/fama

hth

[Joaco]

Bill,
you are welcome and of course I don't mind, just add it to this post!

About magazines, there is also AFM out there, Ronald Shimek PhD and others write there. I subscribed but didn't get my first issue yet, but I have been told it was excellent.
Let me post the link to subscribe to it when I get home in some hours, I have the bookmark at the other computer

Joaco

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Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 27th May 2000