Is it possible to add a layer of live sand and a big pile of live rock in say, a 29 gallon tank and not have to worry about ammonia and nitrites (when first starting out)? Would the live rock work right away or would it take time for the bacteria to colonize? And, I am confused about cured and not cured. Does it mean the difference between colonized by bacteria and not being colonized or does it mean the difference between having a bunch of crap on the live rock and having it washed away? Also wondering, how long does it take for the anaerobic bacteria to colonize in your sand bed and/or other places that can grow anaerobic bacteria...like a sump(?)? Thanks for your time.

------------------
I am Seaman: The Forbidden Pet

So, my point was...hehehe...or question was: does a reef tank cycle or is it just "automatically" cycled with the addition of live sand and rock? I just threw in those other questions for the sake of filling in space. <^o^>

------------------
I am Seaman: The Forbidden Pet

Well, in our case we never detected a cycle in the sense of our feature article, 'The Cycle'. The author postulated that knowledge of 'The Cycle' made no real difference, in his test group.

We have about 40# of rock in a 55g tank, an inch of crushed coral (a mistake) and on top of that about three inches of "live" sand. NitrAtes built up slowly to a hair under 5ppm over seven weeks, and my kit never detected ammonia and nitrItes.

I DID test the test kit, and had a water sample tested by somebody else who used a different brand of tester. For a short while, I really got paranoid.

Aquanut suggests (and this sounds like the logical conclusion) that the ammonia-nitrIte spikes happened so quickly, that I simply missed them, between one test and the next.

'Cured' allegedly means that the material in question has already experienced die-off and ammonia buildup, and allegedly already have the needed bacteria... I'd like to see a more authoritative definition of the word. Today even the word "Live" on reef procucts has a little trademark next to it, because the manufacturers are using it as a marketing tool, rather than as a declaration of contents.

Off for the weekend, Clark Art Institute in western Massachusetts. Be seeing you.

------------------
Cheers,
Rob
New York City

You will have some sort of cycle. Usually it takes about 30 little more little less. it depends.then you will experience the algae blooms,cynobacteria,etc It is all a natural process and when your done cycling you can start stocking slowly with hardy corals and after your algae blooms are gone and coralline algae has spread you can keep harder corals to keep like sps

------------------
This is the most addictive thing that i have ever come across as well as expensive

Seaman, just be aware that in my experiance with cured and uncured LR, there was die-off in both instances and ammonia spikes.

I "re-cure" any LR I get weather it has been cured or not. Each outfit you buy from has their own way of curing it, one different from the other, different lengths of time and different water parameters. So when you add this "cured" rock to your tank chances are you will have additional die-off. This is what cycles a new tank.

This is more important to an established tank with inhabitants than in cycling a tank. That is why you will see cautions given to those adding even cured rock to an established tank. In this case it is recommended to add it slowly.



------------------
E-mail: fishies@ravenstar.com

Ravestar is right. All live rock cured or uncured is going to go through some kind of cycle. Add your sand and rock, keep the lights off and wait for your levels to zero out.

------------------
Just how much do I need to spend in this hobby!!!!

Seaman, i believe it is posible to create an instant reef and this is exactly waht my LFS has done. You must have 100% cured LR and mature water, thats the key.

The problem with LR is if you transport it anywhere your gonna get dieoff, even if you lift a peice out of water, any dieoff means ammonia spike. When your transporting your rock home your going to loose some life so there will inevitably be a small cycle.

Okay, this is what my LFS did when the created there almost instant reef disply tank. The tank is filled with 150g of mature water (from their invert tank system), they move 200lb of 100% cured LR 10ft across the shop floor from the LR holding tanks to the display tank. This means the LR has minimal dieoff, they started the skimmer and left the tank for 1 week. Then they had a delivery of $1500 worth of inverts - you name it Snails, crabs, softies, sps, lps, clams, sea slugs, anemones pretty much everything you'd ever want in a tank and they just put whole lot in the new tank.

I couldn't believe it, it i hadn't seen them do it with my own eyes i wouldn't have believed it. At first i was very sceptical about the whole ordeal but i've kept my eye on the tank for 2 months now and its thriving, theres been no problems with algae, casualities or nothing - oh yeah did i mention they put about 8 fish in there the same day as the corals?

I aplogise for the length of this reply but it goes to show the instant reef is possible if you've got th $$$'s!

------------------
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals. Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson

BTW, that article "The Cycle" was written by yours truly. Anyhow, I have a few additional questions to ask. Do inverts produce ammonia? What exactly "dies off" on live rock? And, does that die off produce ammonia for the cycle to begin or is it a die off of beneficial bacteria? Do reefers even have to worry about "fishless cycling?" What good does it do to "turn off your lights and wait for your levels to zero out?" I think that's it. Thanks a lot guys.

------------------
I am Seaman: The Forbidden Pet

Seaman, if I might address one of your questions, and it is a good one in my opinion and havn't seen it addressed anywhere else:

Your question: "Do reefers even have to worry about 'fishless cycling?'"

This question can be taken two ways I think,

1) By worry you mean, is there a concern as far as is the tank truly being cycled.

2) Do reefers need to bother with such a technique.

If I'm wrong please correct me.

My answer to first interpratation:
Yes I think there is a concern, especially if LR is used. For example, a post on this board mentioned "missing" the actual cycle and not seeing any readings (ammonia or nitrite, and nitrate I believe too). That is a definite concern, because now the aquarist may have a false sense that he/she can add livestock. In the case of LR there may have been a very small die-off hence a small cycle.

My answer to the second interpration:
Yes, they should be concerned or "bothered" with it. Why put fish (usually damsels or clowns) through the torment (often times death) of ammonia and nitrite peaks when you don't have to, LR and coaktal shrimp being the prime examples of fishless cycling. The damsels usually end up back in the LFS anyway because of their undesirable aggresive nature.

Ravenstar,

Both your interpretations were correct. I was just wondering if the technique used in FW aquariums is used for the reef. I would assume not, since adding live rock is essentially seeding the tank with the beneficial bacteria. Am I wrong? See, I am confused...what exactly "dies off?" Is it the bacteria or some other organisms (hitch-hikers)? Thanks.

------------------
I am Seaman: The Forbidden Pet

what exactly "dies off?" Is it the bacteria or some other organisms (hitch-hikers)?

Answer in bold [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]