Too much filtration?

[SupaDupaFly]

Is there such a thing as too much filtration? I have a del rey wet/dry, bak pak2 skimmer, UV sterilizer, magnum canister, and now a buddy gave me a hang on the back AquaClear 300 filter in a 60 gal FO tank. Used to have LR, but my 2 year old daughter decided to pour about 8 ounces of highly concentrated liquid soap in the sump of my tank while I was in the garage. (Killed everything and had to start all over).

[ohenry]

With that 2 year old, you don't have enough filters [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

I doubt you can overfilter a tank, but you just are creating more filters to keep clean of deitrus/debris.

[Ironreef]

If you have different types like wet dry,lr ,fludized bed ,biowheel, then none of the filters really matures. better off just to have one biofilter. Protein skimmer and/or carbon with it is fine. so your wet dry,bakpac and magnum if enough. UV okay its not a filter.

[Doh]

I only problem with having too many filters is that they will produce Nitrates far faster than any de-nitration system(ie. a denitrator or LR etc) can convert them into Nitrogen gas - causing a build up of nitrates. In a FO with lots of water changes then this isn't so much of a problem, but in a reef it's a different sorry....

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"Woo Hoo! Who would of thought reading and writing would pay off!" - Homer Simpson

[LisaJill]

IMO I'd take the Aquaclear HOB and put in some light rocks and a bit of sand, soon you'll have an HOB refugium, can even reverse light it with one small NO if you'd like, then add some caulerpa. Very handy items, IMO, thats what I've done with mine [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Lisa

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http://www.lisa-jill.com

[ohenry]

Nitrates can only be produced as fast as the nitrogen cycle breaks down. Biofilters do not magically produce nitrates without a source of input. Ammonia must be present first. Keep your bioload reasonable for the size of your tank, don't overfeed, keep your filters clean and do water changes when nitrates build up (or have some means to remove the nitrates such as macroalgae, denitrator, or anaerobic areas).

[Ironreef]

Nitrates can be produced faster than it can be broke down to nitrogen gas. this is why you can get high nitrates= ammo-nitrite-nitrate -nitrogen gas. When you have to many filters they aren't given enough time to mature and the cycle is slowed. But having carbon filters isn't gonna hurt its may add to detrius build up. Its when you have LR,wet/dry,fluidized bed, bio wheel all on the same system is when nitrates build up. I belive LR & ls is the only one that the bacteria can turn into nitrogen gas. this is why bio wheels and wet drys become nitrate factory. But don't I'm not 100% sure.

[ohenry]

This is a bit off topic from the original question, but relevant none-the-less. I think the original question has been answered, but a few points muddled.

It is entirely possible to maintain nitrate levels near zero with biowheels or bioballs in place PROVIDED it is not the sole means of the biological filtration. I know this because I ran a reef system using live rock and a trickle filter and maintained nitrates of <1.0 ppm for years. Trickle filters provide a surface area that will allow the growth of nitrosoma and nitrobacter bacteria. These bacteria reproduce quickly in an aquarium environment and are beneficial in that they quickly break down the ammonia produced by the animals into nitrites and quickly to nitrates. If no other means of biological filtration is available, the nitrogen cycle ends at this point and nitrates will continue to build as long as fish excrete ammonium byproducts. With frequent water changes, it is possible to keep nitrate levels within acceptable levels for fish. With live rock also available, the nitrate reducing bacteria is able to grow and convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas. This bacteria is only found in areas of low oxygen content. By the nature of a trickle filter, this bacteria cannot grow in the trickle filter. It is believed that this bacteria is found in low oxygen areas within the live rock and in deep sand beds. During the 1980's it was found that it was possible to remove the bio media and still provide a biological filter to reduce ammonia byproducts (Berlin system). The reason that trickle filters are called "nitrate factories" (IMO) is because they only do 3/4 of the complete job -- they stop the cycle at the production of nitrates and do not provide the means to reduce the nitrates. However, by providing a place for nitrate reducing bacteria to prosper, the production of nitrates is not a problem. Having multiple mechanical filters does not "slow down" the cycle. It only provides more surface area for bacteria to form (and more areas for debris/deitrus to build up and produce more ammonium by-products). I've heard people contend that the biowheel competes with the live rock as the medium for the bacteria to grow. While this may be true, that has nothing to do with the removal of nitrates as this process is not done by the same bacteria that reduces ammonia and nitrite. I do not believe that biowheels will produce any more nitrate than is produced by any other means and that that level is a direct result of the production of ammonium in our systems.

Having said all that, I still believe that the preferred reef system would use live rock and live sand to provide all of the biological filter and use mechanical filtration only on an infrequent basis if necessary. But in a fish only tank with little live rock and no live sand bed, a trickle filter is still a very effective means of biological filtration and becomes a "nitrate factory" only by poor housekeeping practices of not cleaning filters, overloading the biological load of the system with too many fish, and infrequent water changes. Other means of nitrate removal still exist such as algae scrubbers and dentirating coils and they can be quite beneficial.

We've come a long way from the days of undergravel filters and corner boxes filled with floss, but much is still not understood about our hobby. Thanks to pioneers like Dr. Ron Shimek and others, we are continuing to learn how the ecosystems work and are developing new methods to improve the habitats for our animals.

Now, I could be way off base on this and I welcome theories that oppose my understanding of the process that may better help me understand how my reef works.

[Bojinx]

Just to stir the pot a little [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ...this is an exerpt from the Aquarium USA magazine's "2001 Annual". It is by Timothy A. Hovanec PhD, and he is talking of 'Nitrification and Nitrifying Bacteria"

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Nitrifiers come in two basic flavors: The ammonia-oxidizers and the nitrite-oxidizers. Ammonia-oxydizers change ammonia to nitrite and nitrite-oxidizers convert nitrite to nitrate. Both bacteria types are called chemolithoautotrophic bacteria. This is in contrast to another group of bacteria present in aquariums - the heterotrophic bacteria.
Chemolithoautotrophic means the bacteria use chemical energy (chemo), specifically an inorganic chemical as as energy source (litho), and use carbon dioxide as their sole source of carbon (aoutotrophic). Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, use organic chemicals for energy sources.
The assumption for a long time was that the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria were the same in freshwater and seawater, just as the nitrie-oxidizers were the same. Further it was generally assumed that the ammonia-oxidizer was Nitrosomonas europaea and the nitrite-oxidizer was Nitrobacter winogradskyi. The importance of this to the aquarist is that many companies make mixtures of mitrifying bacteria to help accelerate the establishment of nitrification in aquariums and they use these two bacteria in the mixtures.
These assumptions have now been shown to be wrong according to the research I did for my Ph.D. dissertation, the details of which are too technical for this article. The important message is that there are different species of ammonia and nitrite-oxidizing bacteria for freshwater and saltwater aquariums and that they are not the ones named above. In fact, they are new bacteria not previously known.

So take those bottles of 'instant-cycle' and laugh at them and your attempt to use them to cycle your tank. Your tank probably cycled fine, but this had nothing to do with the 'magic-bottle'. Obviously, EVERYTHING WE KNEW WAS WRONG. If the bacteria running the first two legs of our nitrification are mysterious, and not the Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter that we all know, then what else about our tanks do we take for granted that we understand, yet may have no clue about?

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jImMy

"Watching fate as it flows down the path we have chose"
"...Never thought to question 'Why'?"
"A Friend in need's a Friend indeed"

pAz LeNcHaNtIn... oh how i wish...

[This message has been edited by Bojinx (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Ironreef]

why have a trickle filter when you have LR its not needed.?? Unless you have very little LR maybe but if you have 1/2 the tanks volumne no other biological filter is needed IME. My tanks always has undetectable nitrates ect... with just LR and skimming.

[ohenry]

I agree Ironreef...but not all tanks have live rock or live sand in them for various reasons.

[wgscott]

You can get the article as a pdf for free at http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/62/8/...t&pmid=8702281

[Ironreef]

If you have LR you don't need a wet dry. If you have a FO and a wetdry you can use LR for hiding place. But in a reef full of LR a wetdry isn't needed. If you have a wet dry you don't need a fluidized bed and a biowheel with it also. One system is better. It will fully develop This is what I mean.

[valid]

wgscott-

thanks for providing me w/ a useful tool for lit searches!