I've heard that a live sand substrate with lots of live rock is the best way to go (berlin) for filtration. Speaking soley from a lack of money stand point (believe it or not sw fish and inverts are getting to be more expensive than my 2month old daughter), could I go with about 55 pounds of liverock; yank my ugf, keep my cc substrate and be sucessfull. I would assume that the cc sub. would become live as it already has bacteria in it? I have a protein skimmer, a sand man filter(kinda sucks) and have plenty of water flow. All people who reply will recieve a new Jaguar. Please see disclaimers.


*not applicable to any living person who reads this, or to their pets. Must be 18.[img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]


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Go somewhere else and sell crazy, were all full here!

Hi Hinescom ~

If you are going to remove your UGF (good idea!), then by all means get rid of the crushed coral substrate at the same time. Crushed coral should only be used in a fish-only system, if at all.

You need a fine grain aragonite sand to make an efficient live sandbed. You should aim for a depth of at least 4". Unfortunately, you do not live on the east coast where the Home Depot Tropical Play Sand is available for less than $4 per 50 lb bag. You can get "name brand" aragonite sand from the LFS at outrageous prices, or you could get some Home Depot sand from Reefland for $11/50-lb bag plus shpg (about $16 extra per bag).

Good luck,

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

P.S. - Maybe I'm reading your question wrong. Are you intending to run a FOWLR tank or are you planning on converting to a reef-tank sometime in the future? If it's going to be a reef-tank, you definitely need to get rid of the crushed coral. If it's NEVER going to be a reef-tank, you could keep the crushed coral substrate since it would be easier to clean in a fish-only tank.


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Irrational Exuberance!

[This message has been edited by Ninong (edited 11-16-2000).]

Ninong,
You mentioned that you can never have a reef tank with a crushed coral substrate. Why? I am reseting my tank and would like to eventually add some corals. I'm not sure what argonite sand is. What substrate can I use?

Karun

Hi Karun ~

The reason everyone is moving in the direction of a deep, fine grain, live sandbed for reef-tanks is because it has been proven to not only provide an excellent source of denitrification, but it also provides a lot of food for the tank in the form of the biological activity of the sandbed infauna. In order to establish the most diverse and most efficient assortment of critters in your sandbed, it is necessary to mimic, as close as possible, natural sediments.

Aragonite sand is simply calcium carbonate sand. The kind of fine white sand found in the tropics. In other words, it is NOT the tan looking silica sand.

The reason crushed coral substrates do not work well for this purpose is because the particle size is too large to provide the proper environment for the beneficial meiofaunal and infaunal liveforms that are so necessary to an efficient self-sustaining live sandbed. The reason people may prefer crushed coral substrates in a fish-only system is because they can siphon the detritus from the bottom without picking up fine sand in the process. When using a fine grained deep live sandbed in a reef-tank, you would NOT siphon the substrate. The sandbed will take care of itself. The spaghetti worms and all the other critters in the sandbed will keep it turned over all by themselves without any help from you.

Maybe I should NOT have used the word "never" when talking about crushed coral substrates in a reef-tank. If that's all you can get, go ahead and use it but don't make it deep like you would if it were fine grained sand. I would suggest an inch or so of crushed coral and lots of live rock if you can't get fine grained sand.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



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Irrational Exuberance!

Karun. You can use any substrate that you desire to use, or none at all. As Ninong has pointed out, a deep sand bed of finer grained sands works best because it can become imbedded with beneficial life forms that will continue to turn over the sand, keeping it clean. The advantage of live sand is that it is very effective at establishing areas of low oxygen and water flow that are essential for natural means of nitrate removal. For years people have maintained reef tanks without live sand however. Nitrates are your cental issue in that case. For the most part, having a system that only contains live rock can also provide all the biological functioning necessary to convert ammonia to nitrite and also convert the nitrite to nitrate, albeit not as effectively as live sand. Many people still use bioballs, biowheels, and other mechanical means to breakdown the ammonia. In this case, there is no means to remove the resulting nitrates and it must be removed with water changes, an algae scrubber, a nitrate reactor, or some other mechanical means, but it can be done. In all cases, a protein skimmer is HIGHLY recommended.

If you have a reef setup that includes mechanical filtration, cleanliness is a must. Keep the filters very clean, changing frequently, do frequent water changes, and vacuum the substrate. Not doing so results in a buildup of uneaten foods and fish detritus which will breakdown increasing your nitrate levels.

In a natural system with live rock and live sand and protein skimmer, you don't have filters to clean and vacuuming is NOT desired, so you have less work to do and result in a much more effective system. It is definately the best method that we currently know of. Second best would probably be live rock without substrate and no mechanical filtration except a protein skimmer. As you add mechanical means of filtration (biowheels, bioballs, etc) you increase the amount of work you'll need to do in order to maintain a working system.

[This message has been edited by ohenry (edited 11-17-2000).]

Oooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrr you could just go bare bottom. If you can't get the sand then go bare bottom until you do. Crushed coral will work against you........I KNOW

Mark

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Tank site is still under constuction.
http://members.aol.com/golfish49/index.html

Darn it Mark, I was just going to say that. Bare bottom would be better than any CC substrait is long as you have sufficent LR.

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Art

My Aquarium

So how much live rock would I need if I had a live sand sub.. And which is the least expensive way to get live sand. I do have a HomeDepot nearbye in Missoula,Mt., so if I could find that sand then where would I go from there. Right now I have 5lbs of live rock and am getting my hands on about 40lbs of aragonite(or some type of pourus rock that the lfs sells) to stick in for it to be seeded into live rock. Will have protein skimmer and 90watts of light on a 55gal. And yes Im doing some inverts too. What is the best yet cost effective way to get to this Berlin method of filtrarion that you guys are talking about, from where Im at now. [img]/ubb/confused.gif[/img]

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Go somewhere else and sell crazy, were all full here!

NINONG? why cant you mix cc with sand. If she has cc now wouldnt it work by adding enough sand and mixing to make a deep sand bed. We cant just dissregard the previos methods for the sake of a new one. This is in no way a flame. I have been listening to you and Smitty, and Greenmariner for a while and I respect you opinions a great deal, Im just curious to this arrangement of CC and Sand
Thanks
Albee

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First it was a hobby, Than an obsession, Now it's an experience.
Come see my tank!

Just a question on the sand from Home Depot.........is it available here in MI or anywhere nearby?

If not, where is reefland can I buy some? I'm in the process of getting all my stuff together for my 90 gal that my wife bought for me as an early xmas present (altho I actually paid for it......[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

And how much sand would you all recommend? One of my friends recommended 80 lbs for a 90 gal tank. One of the books (by bob fenner) recommends a 3" base (which equals XXX lbs..?)[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks!

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"I'm going to the fish store, I'll be back in 20 minutes"

Hinescom, if you cant afford aragonie sand , a perfectly good substitute would be the silica sand . This stuff will work just fine, although you may have to add buffer more frequently. For a good sandbed for youre 55 you will need about 110 lbs of sand and a dritivore kit from inland aquatics........Mike

Originally posted by albee1947:
NINONG? why cant you mix cc with sand. If she has cc now wouldnt it work by adding enough sand and mixing to make a deep sand bed. We cant just dissregard the previos methods for the sake of a new one.

The reason I would recommend against adding sand to crushed coral is because eventually all of the sand will settle to the bottom and all of the crushed coral will rise to the top. Crushed coral is fine for a shallow substrate in a fish-only system; but it is no longer in vogue for reef-tanks because it is not suitable to the efficient functioning of a deep live sandbed.

The HD sand is popular because it is very cheap and it just so happens to be an excellent mix of particle sizes for a live sandbed. Unfortunately, it is not available in Michigan or Montana, and they won't transfer it out there. It is only available at Home Depot stores in a very limited area near Philadelphia (NY/NJ/PA and sometimes Ohio). Reefland has it available for $11 per 50-lb bag plus shpg (about $16 more).

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



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Irrational Exuberance!

Originally posted by nucleuscracker:

If not, where is reefland can I buy some?

And how much sand would you all recommend?

Reefland is where you are right now: www.reefland.com just click on Shopping at Reefland. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

For a 90 gallon tank, you will need about 175 lbs to make a 4" deep sandbed. So you could start out with 3x50lb bags of HD sand and then add some "live" sand to that a little later on, or you could order 200 lbs of HD sand and have a little extra.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



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Irrational Exuberance!

Sometime before December, I will be replacing my 2 inch CC bed with HD sand. I'm afraid of losing the copepods and being stung by the worms that are currently in the CC. Should I wear gloves? Buy a new plastic slatted spoon?

What shall I do with the old CC? Sell it to the LFS as "live CC?" Dump it on an old professor's lawn in the dark of night? [img]/ubb/wink2.gif[/img]

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SeaBean

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Hinescom ~

1. You will need at least 100 lbs of sand for your substrate in a 55 gallon tank. I would suggest the cheapest solution would be to order 2x50lb bags of HD sand from Reefland @ $11 ea plus shpg.

2. You will need at least 45 lbs of good live rock (75 lbs would be even better). You could order a box of live rock online for as little as $99 plus about $58 for overnight shipping.

3. If your present lighting is only 90 watts for your 55 gallon tank, you will be very limited in what you can keep. You will need to increase this lighting substantially in order to keep corals or clams. There are many options here, but unfortunately, no cheap ones.

4. I don't know what skimmer you have but some skimmers are worthless. You might post the brand or model name if you would appreciate any feedback.

5. You will also need excellent water circulation if you want to keep a reef-tank.

Please post any other questions and we'll tackle 'em as they come up.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

SeaBean ~

Yes, you might want to wear gloves. Since you have a FOWLR it will not be nearly as much trouble as if you were having to move a lot of corals, etc. I would just get rid of the crushed coral. Wait a week or two for your new sandbed to settle down and then, when no one is looking, swap a couple of cups of sand from your 180g FOWLR tank for a couple of cups of sand from that 65g wanna-be reef-tank. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Do that once a week for three or four weeks and you should have a "lively" sandbed. Just be sure to smooth out the spot where you made the swap so you-know-who won't notice anything.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

Thank you Ninong!

As always, I appreciate and will follow your advice. You are the Alan Greenspan of reefonomics!

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SeaBean

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Ninong,
...and you usually have such good advice.
[img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]
65 wannabe?
that's cooooooooooold!


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-schrocat

"Whacha got in the box?"

I am interested in this also. My tank is a 75 fowlr (about 60lbs) and I have a crushed coral bed.

Where do I click on shopping to get some sand?
How much should I get for the 75?
Is it even worth it to do in this tank because its a fish only?

Hi BoomBoom ~

If you want to get some of the HD sand from Reefland, here is the link: http://secure2.easyspace.com/www.reefland.com/shopping/

Things to consider: (a) In a fish-only type system, it is traditional to go with a shallow crushed coral substrate because it is easier to siphon the substrate without picking up any fine sand.

(b) People who have fish-only systems (with or without live rock) might be switching to a deep live sandbed for a couple of reasons: they want the extra denitrifying capacity of the sandbed and they want to be prepared for the eventual conversion to a full fledged reef-tank.

For a 75-gallon tank, you will need about 175 lbs of sand for a 4" deep sandbed. I would suggest you start with at least 3 bags of the HD sand.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

[This message has been edited by Ninong (edited 11-18-2000).]