Anyone using this? If so, I have 3 questions.

1. How long have you had it set up?
2. What has been the frequency of your water changes?
3. Any side effects pertaining to the abundance of time-released trace elements? Hair algae or cyano?

Brent

bt28, sorry, I don't have advice for you, just some comments.

I have been out of saltwater aquariums for over 10 years and am just now designing a couple tank setups. I have been very surprised at how the hobby has changed in the last 10 years - trickle filters had just become the thing and skimmers were only for the elite hobbyist! Now trickle filters are out, Berlin/Plenum and Skimmers are it!

As I've investigated the hobby lately, I have become VERY interested in the EcoSystem filtration method. I've read everything I could get my hands on and have even called Leng and his coworkers with questions. I have to say they have been 'way' more helpful than I thought they would be. I told them I wanted to build my own filter using their mud and they went so far as to help me design my sump to get proper flow/circulation, etc.. I greatly appreciated that! From pictures I'd seen, I had some of the sump chambers wrong and they actually faxed me dimension suggestions, and noted where measurements HAD to be exact and where I could slightly alter design parameters. I live in a very small town with NO LFS and everything I get has to be purchased abroad (internet or 2+ hours away).

Sorry to ramble, but my point is that I am very interested in peoples experience with this setup. I have never heard anything bad - either people rave over it or they say its nothing special, but there seems to be no doubt that it is successful. Also, I wanted to say the people at Ecosystems are very helpful and don't seem to mind when people want to diy versus spend big bucks on their filter! I guess they must make their $$ of the mud.

Hi All,

Well after a number of reefs based on mega-skimmers, and various forms of algae filtration, after about a years investigation, at the end of May, I set up a 180 gallon reef based on a home made EcoSystem filter and a deep live sand bed in the main tank.

Here are some of the threads to date that I have posted:

1 http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000043.html

2 http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000025.html

3 http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000069.html

4 http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000096.html

Also, numerous postings on Reefs.org.

Visit my reef site for the current status and observations on my system.

Also, private E-mails (of which I get quite a few on this subject)

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

[This message has been edited by SPASSE (edited 12-20-2000).]

I bought a EcoSystem filter and upgraded from a 75 gallon tank to a 120. Big bucks, but I just don't have the time to make things myself. I have had it set up for one and half months. Everything is doing fine. The only thing I have had a problem with is maintaining the PH/Alkalinity and calcium. Strange being I have a aragonite sand for a substrite. I don't know for sure, but I switched to Kent sea salt from Instant Ocean and wonder if that has anything to do with it. The HLLE on my sailfin tang is healing very niceley.

I just bought a eco-system 40 last week. I have so ? about using it. Can I use it with my trickle filter and skimmer? I am using it on my 40 gallon reef. I already have it going I havent put the algae in it yet I plan to after Christmas. Am I doing anything wrong? Thanks

Spasse, I'd love to check out how your experiment has progressed. I'm sure you know this already, but you are not setup as suggested by Ecosystem. There should be very little (less than 1") to NO substrate in the display tank. As I've already read in one of your other posts, it seems that the thick substrate layer competes with the calurpa for nitrates.

I love the looks that live sand gives. I love all the littel critters that live off it. I called Ecosystem and they told be as long as I keep the LS layer very thin, the only downside is that it's more difficult to clean than a bare bottom tank. I plan to have the critters clean the sand for me, so I'm not too worried about that.

Matthew - my understanding is that you should no longer run either the trickle filter or the skimmer. The Eco40 IS the new trickle filter, and skimmers are not necessary (or good) for the Ecosystem filtration. Primarily they deplete alot of the suspended plankton-type byproducts that the mud/calurpa produce.

ScottWV1,

I realize that I am running an Ecosystem Hybrid but would like to offer some insight as to why I went this route.

1 I had been running various types of deep sand bed configurations for years and have grown to appreciate the ability of a deep sand bed to process system detritus, abrogating need to “siphon detritus” out of the bottom of the main tank

2 After talking with Leng via some E-mail exchanges and phone calls, It became apparent to me that he was not “up to speed” on current deep sand bed practice, as he discussed issues like “hydrogen sulfide poisoning” etc. that are not problems associated with a properly constructed deep sand bed.

3 I furthermore had some conversations with Dr. Ron, and the consensus of this discussion was that a deep sand bed in the main tank and a Algae Filter should be complementary as two of the elements that a deep sand bed would not export (sulfates and phosphates), would be dealt with via the plant mass export of the algae filter.

4 My particular problem with the deep sand bed “out competing” the macro algae for available nutrients was related to lack of bio-load (critters) in my system. Now that the system is maturing and being “fed” at a higher level, there is enough available food for both systems.

5 The same problem seems to happen if you try to combine a powerful skimmer with the EcoSystem approach, the skimmer “out competes” the algae for nutrients.

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

[This message has been edited by SPASSE (edited 12-24-2000).]

Scott, I appreciate you expanding on your setup reasons. I am still in the process of setting my systems up, so I am still vulnerable [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] to suggestions. I like DSB, not from any personal experience, but from asthetics (I like critters and DSBs are a playground from my perspective!). Sounds like you are thinking Ecosystem + DSB are complimentary to each other - just the opposite of Leng's bare bottom tank opinion. Interesting....

I talked w/ Bob @ Ecosys and he said he is running a personal tank w/ 1" livesand. I honestly think Leng is partial to bare bottom tanks simply for ease of cleaning. I would rather hire a cleaning crew and enjoy the activity! Never thought of going w/ a DSB.

Merry Xmas, and thanks for sharing your experiences - it really helps...

what would happen if you didnt put any macro algae in the mud but have a DSB?

the caulerpa is the filter, the mud does nothing but feed the caulerpa and is suppose to help replenish trace into the tank. Its the caulerpa that does the filtering not the mud.

Scott,

The mud apparently feeds the caulerpa and "somehow" time-releases trace elements back into the tank. How, or if this is truly the case is still being debated. As for the live sand bed outcompeting the caulerpa for nitrates, the solution to that would be simple. Feed more! Which, in turn, will help the corals to grow. As long as Iron and Nitrates are available along with light and water flow your caulerpa should have no problem having enough stuff to fully feed off of.

Brent

bt28,

I think we are saying the same thing as per item #4 in my previous post. But a new tank, is as you know, a bit of a balancing act as far as feeding goes.

Now that my sand bed is more mature and there is actually something (besides the live sand bed) to feed in the main tank, there is enough nutrient load to keep the macro algae growing well.

As far as the micro-nutrients in the “miracle mud” well, this is as I will be the first one to admit, “antidotal speculation”. But more than one person that has experimented with this system has observed that both algae & coral growth seems to slow after the mud has been in service for approximately 18 to 24 months, and resumes at it’s original rate when some of the “miracle mud” has been replaced. Hence standard practice is to replaces approximately 1/3 of the mud per year, after the first 18 months or so.

As compared to previous sand bed/algae filtered systems I have set up, so far the EcoSystem does seem to be working better (for me).

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

[This message has been edited by SPASSE (edited 12-27-2000).]

I work for a pet store/ tank maintance company. i do all of the installations and the maintance. I have installed at least a dozen ecosystems and I personally have a homemade algae filter without the ecomud instead I have about 2in of very fine aragonite. I have found that in the ecosystem the surface of the water isn't agitated so you tend to get a film on top and cynobacteria everywhere in the filter. This usually hinders the algae growth in the sump I have the water flowing directly on the algae in my filter and I do not have the same problem. I also don't have to worry about fish and inverts making down the overflow because they drop strait into the sump. I also like the aragonite because it helps buffer the water.

To make this more confusing...
I noticed that calurpa was used primarily in everyones sump configurations. Can you use Hawaiian sea fan aka "Tang Heaven?" Also, is there a certain type of calurpa used. The reason for this is that I have tons of "Tang Heaven" and saw-leaf calrupa hitch hiking on my rock and was going to transfer these into my sump. What type of macro algae would be most effective in your guys' setup?

Ryan

Any fast growing type of the caulerpa spp. will do.
What you are looking for, is fast growth of macroalgae so you can remove it often. By removing the macroalgae, you are exporting the nutrients that the algae incorporated in the tissue.
I'm running an algae tank with macroalgae only, no mud. It worked excellent in my 75 gal FO tank (see my webpage).
Now that the 75 gal is going reef, I will modify the algae tank with caulerpa so it works as a refugium as well (no mud, but a DSB in there)
Why a DSB in the refugium and not in the main tank? because I already spent $200 in Aragamax Oolite sand to get a 1 inch sandbed in the main tank [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img]

Joaco

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My webpage Updated 14th September 2000

Mountainraised,

I agree with Joaco about species selection.

One approach is to obtain samples of several species, and see which on prevails in you particular sump/situation.

One species that stands out is Caulerpa Taxifolia. This species is:

1 Especially resistant to “sexual crashes”

2 Grows rapidly when nutrients are present.

3 Reacts to lack of nutrients by stopping growth rather that getting sickley/spindly’

Unfortunately, this particular species is “officially” banned from sale is the US, as this is the “Killer Caulerpa” that is causing so much trouble off of the coast of California and in the Mediterranean.
It is available from private parties and LFS that don’t know about it forbidden status.

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

would you have a algae bloom if you didnt put caulerpa? even if you have a 3in sandbed?

i have collected caulerpa befor from a fish pond that has not been used anymore. they use black soil or mud to make walls to separate pond from another pond. there are lots of macro algae everywhere. maybe this could be the same mud used. i tried caulerpa in the sump but cant get enough lite in there and failed within a month, though i trasfer some in the main tank and it grew. all died when i trasfered it when i was seting up the new tank. think im gonna get some for my tank.

Chinitoe,

Well, two known plant foods, sulfates and phosphates are not exported processed by deep sand beds.

Hence the complimentary action of plant export of these nutrients.

Also, there is considerable evidence that the macro algae bio-chemically suppresses lower order (nuisance algae).

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

[This message has been edited by SPASSE (edited 12-29-2000).]