Has anyone had any dealings with the above company?
I'm thinking about buying their 9 items for 99 dollars to jumpstart the sandbed in my 53 gal aquarium.

Also this guy recommended using the courser crushed aragonite (grapenut size) over the finer sand like Aragamax.
I told him I took the course stuff out to replace it with the Aragamax. He said I should have done my reading before I did that. According to him, the finer sugar sized sand floats around more easily causing coral polyp fouling and that the bristle worms like the courser stuff better. He also mentioned that the fine sugar sized sands come off the beach which isn't what you find around a reef naturally.

The problem is I thought I had done my reading. Most of the articles (to me it seemed, anyway) leaned toward the finer stuff.

Did I miss something?[img]/ubb/spineyes.gif[/img]

You are fine with the sugar sized grains, Gerald is probably old school, means well. Dr. Ron as well as Rob Toonen recommend the finer grain sand for de-nitrafication. Otherwise I highly recommend IPSF, always get more than you pay for! HTH

------------------
Check Out>> Green Mariner's FAQs, Wallpaper, Product Reviews, Message Boards, Downloads and tons more!!

No Marcel you are correct about the sand size, the finer the better. This vendor is either desperate to sell you something or is just plain dim.

The aragamax sand you have is not from the beach (which is silica sand).

HTH



------------------
"There can be only one"

As far as an online vendor I've heard nothing but good about IPSF.

Hey, isn't Gerald a marine biologist like Dr. Ron? Check out his background:
http://www.ipsf.com/ipsffounder.html

For what it's worth, I did see more activity from my bristleworms & amphipods when I had crushed coral than the special grade carib sea substrate I have now. I don't know if that means they liked it better or not.

Besides, for me a substrate bottom (as opposed to a true berlin system) is all about the sand bed fauna taking care of detrius and producing planktonic animals during their larval stages that feed my corals. This is probably heresy but I'm not convinced of the de-nitrification properties of a deep sand bed. I think that there is too low of a flow rate through the deeper parts of the sand bed to effectively deal with all the nitrates and how fast the nitrates are produced. I think reduction of nitrates can be better handled through macro algaes anyway. Then again, maybe I need to read some more too...... [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

-Mike

------------------
Einstein once said that,"imagination is more important than knowledge". He was right. Imagination is used to discover knowledge.

Website

All my dealings with ipsf have been very positive. I can't say enough about their customer service. They have replaced stuff with free shipping even though I was the one who screwed up.

Coarse sand vs fine sand might be a matter of preferance and the kinds of fish and critters you have. I prefer fine sand because I like goby-types that burrow and rearrange the landscape.

Ravenmore--I'm interested in your theory of the less deep sand bed. I'm going to bite the bullet, or more precisely, bite the bioball and dismantle my wet/dry system. I have about a 2 inch sandbed now and was going to increase it by 3 or 4 inches. The thing is, I don't like looking into a tank that is half sand, especially around the the glass where it gets so nasty looking. I can't pile it up in back because the tank has built-in powerheads and deep sand would cover up the water inlet holes. I'd like to hear some more discussion on this.

------------------
If it's broke, don't fix it---hide it.

Thanks for all the responses.

As far as denitrification goes, I would assume that a finer sand wouldn't require the depth as the courser stuff does(more surface area for bacteria, and less oxygen at the bottom layer). Of course if Ravenmore is correct then all this would be moot.

My sandbed is about 4 inches deep. However, I for one also set up the sandbed primarily for the biodiversity I could add to my tank, and the production of coral food. That's why I contacted IPFS and did order from them.

By the way, I found these interesting snails on Ebay. They are supposed to be True Nassarius snails. They are awesome.
Throughout the day the dig themselves right under the surface of the sandbed. As soon as you throw food in there though, they all climb out (like night of the living dead). They move real fast, and they don't go very deep into the sand so they don't disturb it too much. And they are fast!!! [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img] I've never seen a snail flip itself up with the wip action these snails have. Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has heard about these. Here is a link about them http://www.sealifes.com/Index.html.

I've ordered from them 4 times, and highly recommend them. You always get more than you ordered and I've been extremely pleased with their products.

------------------
Jim - GO HOGS GO!
Visit my NEW Reef Page -
http://razorbackfan.topcities.com

Hi Marcel
I have ordered from IPSF and will again in the future. Im in process of redoing my sandbed in my 90gal and I have about 3-4" fine sand in right now and im gonna take out about2-3" out then put about 2-3" of CC then put the medium sized carib sea on top of the CC( about 1") thats three different layers. HTH [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------
Rocky

http://www.geocities.com/scubadud3/reef.html

Forget about World Peace.....Visualize Using Your Turn Signal !

I too delt with them to buy the live sand activator and I must say that I HIGHLY RECOMMEND them as well, I was very surprised by all the life that came with them.

------------------
~~Chad~~ If at first you don't succeed, don't give up, we are here to help.

Marcel,

Nassarius snails are great - I basically use them in place of hermits. They eat left over fish food, detrius, and any decaying/dying animal matter. IPSF doesn't sell them unfortunately, but www.premiumaquatics.com does. You might also look into the strombus grazers from IPSF. These snails (actually closely related to the Queen conchs) have two very interesting attributes. They are know to eat cyano and they reproduce readily in your tank. Buy half a dozen and you'll soon end up with dozens. Perhaps you can sell the surplus to your LFS?


-Mike


------------------
Einstein once said that,"imagination is more important than knowledge". He was right. Imagination is used to discover knowledge.

Website

Double thumbs up for them

------------------
------------------------
Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

Hi All,

I have been working with various combinations of deep sand beds, with and without plenums for about 8 years.

I am convinced at this point in time that a deep fine sand bed (no plenum) is the way to go.

A deep fine sand bed means a 4 to 6” deep aragonite based sand, with an average particle size of 0.5mm or less. Two of the commercial products that fit this description are the SouthDown Tropical Play sand or a 60/30/10% mix of ESV and CaribSea products.

Bristle worms are one of the near surface critters that are content with a larger particle size, but there are many other sand fauna critters that prefer a fine particle size.

In Dr. Ron’s article, Muddy Waters, Dr. Ron illustrates the relative fauna densities of fauna vs. particle size. The conclusion of this study is that fine sands are much more productive, in terms of fauna communities than courser substrates.

When a deep sand bed is constructed of the wrong particle size, there are two problems:

1 Detritus penetrates the sand bed (at depth) placing it out of reach of you surface cleanup crew. (Snails, hermit crabs, etc.) So it is left to be acted upon by nitrogen cycle bacteria. The end result of this is lots of nitrate production.

2 As described by Dr. Ron’s and Rob Toonen’s articles, a course sand bed is not capable of supporting the fauna community that is capable of fully processing detritus. Yes a course sand bed will have lots of pods etc. but the worms, and other fauna that makes a deep fine sand bed work, will not be present in sufficient numbers.

As far as putting Dr. Ron up against Gerald Heslinga, well I would mention that Dr. Ron holds a Doctorate in marine biology and has spent years studying sand bed ecosystems.

Here is Dr. Ron’s article: http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp

Also, Rob Toonen’s article “Are Plenums Obsolete” in the Jan and Feb 2000 issues of FAMA.

As far as de-nitrafication goes, my personal experience is that a properly constructed DSB is a match for a plenum system.

My current system test for nitrates below the resolution of my Salifert test kit. (<0.2ppm)

I do however, highly recommend IPSF's detrivore kits.

Regards,

Scott

------------------
The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

Marcel,
dont forget to order a pair of 'sea bunnies' from IPSF, they are AWESOME. I have my own pair in one of the refugiums.

Joaco

------------------
My webpage Updated 14th September 2000

Spasse,

Thanks for posting. I was curious to see what you thought of my remarks.

Thanks also for explaining your position on the particle size. My question is that, since detrius can penetrate deeper in a courser substrate, couldn't also detrius eating fauna penetrate deeper as well? Specifically I'm talking about bristleworms and those small, white, serpent stars. When I had crushed coral substrate some 3" deep I often observed the above critters at or near the bottom of the substrate layer.

Also, de-nitrification is often touted as the number one reason for a deep sand bed(at least that's the way it seems to me). What do you think about that issue? Just watching my tank over the fast year I've observed first hand how quickly nitrates can rise. From my understanding of what I've read, anaerobic bacteria deep in the sand bed is supposed to feed on the nitrogen compounds. Also from what I understand, you have to have a very slow water flow to support anaerobic bacteria. Higher water flows would basically kill it by inducing oxygen into the lower layers, right? So, I'm looking at how quickly nitrates can rise (at least in my tanks) and the theoretical slow flow rates in the deep sand bed layers and thinkin something just doesn't jive. Of course, I'm not a marine biologist AT ALL so I could just simply be misinformed. It just seems to me that a better choice to reduce nitrates would be a good skimmer and perhaps macro algae in the sump?

Also, I didn't really mean to compare Gerald to Ron, just wanted to point out that he, according to his web site, is also a marine biologist and maybe his opinions shouldn't be discarded so lightly.

Thanks,
-Mike

------------------
Einstein once said that,"imagination is more important than knowledge". He was right. Imagination is used to discover knowledge.

Website

Spasse,

I have a problem that I can't seem to find an answer for. I started in this hobby about 1 1/2 years ago. I spent a lot of money on bad advice based on bad data. I think there is another area where we really don't understand what we are doing.
The Berlin system requires live rock. Now we add deep sand beds and need very fine particle size. All of a sudden, crushed coral is a no-no. Why? Because the finer material provides more small spaces for anaerobic bacteria. Why do we still use live rock then? It has far less total porosity then crushed coral. I can't follow the logic. Can someone ‘splain it to me?

LR has tons of surface space, which is where the nitrification cycle takes place. Without it, there's the chance that you'd suffer from NH3, and N02. Not to mention the invaluable plethora of fauna that comes with the LR that would be impossible to achieve otherwise. LR one of the pillars of a good system. No question about it.

-Perry

Thanks for all the replies.
I just placed my order for 9 items for 99 bucks. Can't wait to get it.

Here's another question though. I've had to deal with power outages before on an aquarium with some crushed coral and lots of live rock. One time the power was out in a 150 gal tank, 24 inches tall by 6 feet by 19 inches wide. The power was out for about 2 1/2 days. Everything made it through OK though.

How would you deal with this problem when you have a live sandbed? It would seem that the oxygen level would drop a lot quicker at the bottom of the tank especially with all that life in the sand. How could you prevent from losing your biological filter (besides buying a generator)? I guess losing denitrifying bacteria wouldn't be the issue here.

I don't think live rock gets rid of nitrates, at least not through the bacteria. It does have tons of surface area for the bacteria(aerobic as opposed to the anaerobic bacteria in deep sand bed layers that ARE supposed to get rid of nitrates) - this bacteria is necessary for biological filtration(turning decaying organic matter to ammonia, then to nitrites, then to nitrates, ect.....). Think of live rock as nature's bio balls. However, I've always wondered if the coraline algae on the rock would absorb nitrates like other algaes?

CWA46 - I've kind of come to the conclusion that live sand is more about the fauna in it being used to rid the system of detrius. It also has the benefit that this fauna often, when reproducing, goes through a planktonic stage in their life cycle. This plankton they produces feeds corals and other filter feeders in your tank. I also think the surface area of live sand has similar biological filtration properties as live rock (ie. AERObic bacteria). I'm not convinced of the anaerobic filtration properties though. Spasse and Ron Shimek(Ron has a doctorate and has spent his life studying sand beds) are experts in this area and they might be able to explain otherwise.

-Mike

------------------
Einstein once said that,"imagination is more important than knowledge". He was right. Imagination is used to discover knowledge.

Website

In a couple of weeks I'm planning to increase my sand bed ( with Southdown play sand) and add more live rock (and remove bioballs). This has been bugging me so much I even dream about it.

1. When I put the new sand in, do I mix it or stir it so the life near the surface doesn't find itself buried too deeply to get out? I have lots of bristle worms, tiny white stars, snails, etc.

2. Do I put all the new sand in at the same time or a little over a few days or weeks?

3. I have 5 convict blennies, each about 7 inches long. They reside in the front left hand corner of the tank and have an apartment under a large rock. They never venture further than their own 30 gallon area on the left. But they constantly remodel and rearrange the sand, sometimes all the way down to the tank floor. Can I leave their area alone and only add more sand to the rest of the tank?

4. Do I have to set my lr up on PVC or can I just secure it into the sand?

5. Because of my powerhead inlets (built-in) on the back wall, I can't pile sand very high against the back wall. Can I put more depth of sand in the middle of the tank and less around the edges?

Planning this whole project is giving me nightmares. I hope you guys can answer my questions and give me some guidance and peace of mind. [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Or even a piece of your mind! [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------
If it's broke, don't fix it---hide it.

Ravenmore,

I consider bristle worms and the micro serpent stars to be good “higher order” detrivores. But the fauna that I am trying to promote in a deep fin sand bed is much smaller than these critters.

Analysis of fine sediments reveals “millions” of very small worms, etc.

Detritus is incorporated into the sand bed by the higher order critters that you mentioned. Bristle worms, hermits, snails etc. eat the detritus and pass it on as excrement. This excrement is further processed by a range of “lower order” creatures that finally past their “output” to various bacterial and chemical processes. The sand is also being turned over continuously by various burrowing worms, etc.

On the denitrification issue, at the level where the critters to not reach, say starting at 3-4" various bacteria colonize. The type of bacteria is determined by the oxygen gradient. Some bacteria require aerobic conditions. Moving down you get to the anoxic levels where bacterial processes require just a very limited amount of oxygen. At the deepest levels, you get bacterial processes that are more or less completely anaerobic. Exchange between these zones and the water column in the tank is accomplished by a combination of faunal movement, diffusion, and thermal convection. The bacteria in these deeper zones is getting fed by the “output” of the fauna community that populates the upper layers.

Denitrification is only one of the beneficial chemical processes that takes place in a deep fine sand bed.

By having all of the above zones, you get a complete range of fauna, bacterial, and chemical processes.

Proponents of plenums claim that this exchange is more efficient with a larger grain size and a plenum to act as a nutrient sink, but a deep fine sand bed makes up for this with a higher surface area. Also a nutrient sink can become a liability if it becomes disturbed.

Finally, I also have a mud bed/algae filter in my system. The media in this case is very fine “dirt” and it has become very heavily colonized with bristle worms, burrowing pods, and micro serpent stars.

Regards,

Scott

------------------
The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/