anemone ate bluering octopus!

[chinitoe]

well here goes, i had a blue ring before but it got out and died. so, sealed all exits and bought a new one yesterday. i acclimated him and gave him a 5 sec freshwater dip. fed the fishes and turned the lights off. i put him in the water on the other end of the tank away from the anemone...then SWOSH, swam across the tank right in the center of the anemone. i was shocked and didnt know what to do. it was trying to grab on to something to pull itself out but all it can reach was other tentacles of the carpet anem. i offerd it a stick to grab on but i was too late. and i dont want to touch it either coz it might bite and my finger would just end up sticking on the anemone. (thought these guys were the smartest creatures on sea. well its been 18 hrs now and i could see the base of the anem turning darker as if it is absorbing its ink. will the anem release the ink in the tank onece it digest it completely?

[Ninong]

Well, Chinito, you will be able to teach all of us something with this little fiasco, because I am 99.99% sure than none of the other members of the board has ever experienced anything quite like that. [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img]

You really have to be nuts to have gone out and purchased another one. I guess some people just like to live dangerously. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] On a more serious note, if you have anything else of value in the tank, it might be a good precaution to remove the anemone now rather than later. I have no idea if this is really necessary and I'm sure I will never personally find out, but it's just a suggestion. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

N I N [img]/ubb/eek3.gif[/img] N G

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Irrational Exuberance!

[Ninong]

Chinito ~

Are you sure they produce ink? According to this link, they do not: http://www.gulftel.com/~scubadoc/blueoct.htm

Ninong [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

[wgscott]

Originally posted by Ninong:

You really have to be nuts to have gone out and purchased another one.

Likewise with the first one. I don't mean to flame, but this is not a good household animal, and it sounds like you don't have a good system to keep them in (literally and figuratively).

[ravenmore]

I wonder if the venom will kill the anemone.....

Man, this is the oddest thing I've heard of. [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Let us know how it turns out.

-Mike

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Einstein once said that,"imagination is more important than knowledge". He was right. Imagination is used to discover knowledge.

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[chinitoe]

well after over 24 hrs, everything seems normal. water is clear and the anemone the same. i not sure if bluering has ink but i thought all squids and octopus do. octupus usually eat small crabs which i have plenty of and i hate them too.

i dont know if the octupus bit the anem when it caught him but i dont think its venom can affect anemones.JMO
The bluering was just so cool coz it changes colors instantly. i also made precautionary measures, unlike before when i didnt know a thing.

[Green Mariner]

chintoe, WOW, Just an FYI. A blue ring will eat anything it can capture including your fish, same goes for other types of cephlopods. It would not be unheard of to find one day that all of your fish are gone, one by one. Animals like that really need a species specific tank!!!

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[This message has been edited by Green Mariner (edited 01-10-2001).]

[PerryinCA]

Well, in theory GM is right....but I know a couple people who's octopuses won't touch a fish. One of them will starve itself unless fed ONLY hermits crabs. I think just as with butterfly fish in the reef, you are taking a chance with any of them...but there are always gonna be some that are different from the mainstream. Rebels. Anarchists, pre-teen Mcarthyist. Whats the animal kingdon coming to? [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]


-Perry

[Napoleon]

I'm with Spasse. Everything I have ever read has said (in bold letters) 'Beware! Bluerings are deadly!' I must admit they are beautiful but too risky for this reefer. I thought that if an anemone consumes a posion then it assimilates it and uses it for its own defense. I'm not sure about this mind you and I'm not even sure about where I got the notion but its a thought in my head none the less. **I'm suprized theres any room left, pre-cal is killing me**
Keep the reef,
Napoleon

[SPASSE]

Chinitoe,

I read your post immediately after you posted it and I was not sure if you were being serious.

Actually, though there was a dealer in Denver that actually sold a few of these and I will admit that they were beautiful creatures.

But do you have any kids or pets.

The most common way that bites occur is when one of these critters escapes there tank, ends up on the carpet, and bites some unsuspecting child or pet.

I have had some dangerous pets, including, tarantulas, and snakes, but a blue ring... [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img]

Regards (and be careful!)

Regards,

Scott

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The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/

[Ninong]

Pathophysiology: There are many fractions in the venom secreted from the salivary glands of the blue ringed octopus, one of which is identical to tetrodotoxin. This substance blocks voltage-gated fast sodium channel conduction, blocking peripheral nerve conduction, which can lead to paralysis and death from respiratory failure. Nerve conduction studies in tetrodotoxin-poisoned (puffer fish) persons have demonstrated reduced motor and sensory conduction velocities consistent with inhibition of sodium currents at node of Ranvier. Reported central nervous system effects of tetrodotoxin in humans have included nausea and emesis, miosis, diabetes insipidus, and depressed cortical activity.

Other fractions of the venom include 5-hydroxytryptamine, hyaluronidase, tyramine, histamine, tryptamine, octopamine, taurine, acetylcholine, and dopamine.


N I N [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img] N G


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Irrational Exuberance!

[REAL BIG FISH]

I just have one question, what was the FW dip for???

Jamey[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"If at first you don't succeed, well so much for skydiving"

Check out my reef at REAL BIG FISH'S REEF

[Ninong]

Originally posted by REAL BIG FISH:
I just have one question, what was the FW dip for???

As long as we're asking questions, I have one, too.

Exactly how was the freshwater dip procedure accomplished?

N I N [img]/ubb/eek3.gif[/img] N G



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Irrational Exuberance!

[Rin]

Chinitoe ~ WOW, what a post. I know folks who keep highly venomous snakes--Cobras, Crates, Mamba’s, etc. But these folks have antivenin kept on hand in their homes AND at local hospitals. As deadly as they are, these snakes have simple proteins for venom. They also have thousands of hours of experience in handling these snakes.

After reading Ninong's 'toxicology' post, I'd venture a guess that there is no 'antivenin' available for a bluering. Are you sure you want to continue to keep these guys? I'm somewhat surprised that they're so readily available, the snakes mentioned above can only be obtained on the street illegally (in the U.S., anyway.) Let me clarify that by saying that anyone with a license to keep venomous snakes can easily obtain any snake not listed in CITES. But I digress.

I wouldn’t touch that anemone, either. I’ve read in a couple different places that anemones can incorporate the toxins of any animal they consume into their stinging cells. The examples I’ve read about involve animals with stinging cells of their own, so I don’t know if this holds true of something like an octopus. Still scary, though.

You don’t also happen to keep Cone Shells, do you?


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-Todd
"It's not the poison that gets you, its the dosage."

[Bristle Worm]

Hey,

The next time you plan on feeding your anenomoe a blue ring octopus, do you think you might be able to snap some pictures of the feeding process, or better yet get some video footage of it?

This sounds quite interesting from your text-based description, and I would love to how the animals actually interact with each other in terms of predatory tactics and the corresponding prey reactions. BTW, is this predator/prey relationship common in the wild?

Thanks

[Ninong]

Rin ~

Treatment is supportive.

Endotracheal intubation and ventilatory support until the venom has worn off, usually within 4-10 hours.

No antivenin is available.

Neostigmine and edrophonium have shown benefit in restoring muscular strength in some cases of tetrodotoxin intoxication (e.g., puffer fish), but have not undergone clinical trials in blue-ringed octopus envenomations.
4-Aminopyridine (Neurelan - U.S., Pymadine), a drug utilized as an antagonist to nondepolarizing neuromuscular blocking agents (available in the U.S. as an orphan drug for multiple sclerosis), has been shown to reverse tetrodotoxin toxicity in animal experiments.

Consultations:

A medical toxicologist (certified by the American Board of Medical Toxicology or the American Board of Emergency Medicine), or a poison control center certified by the American Association of Poison Control Centers, should be contacted regarding this uncommon intoxication.*

*Chinito, were you intoxicated when you did this? [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]

Ninong [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]




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Irrational Exuberance!

[fishguy_8]

wow! interesting topic.......i am just gonna toss out the obvious suggestion [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Just make a specific tank for one of the 2.........these are really cool and would be magnificent to behold but in a situation like this i guess its obvious one of the two have to be moved/gotten rid of...........if it were me i'd just find a nice big tank for the octopus because if u got an anem living and doing well u shouldnt mess w/ it........when u get a nice stabalized tank go after your blue friend [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
*note of the obvious.......octopi, especially the blue ring, shouldnt be kept by the casual aquariast.
Jon

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Why is it everytime i go to the petstore w/ money i leave and its all gone??!!

[chinitoe]

SPASSE, no i dont have kids and other pets, my aquarium is located outside, beside the garage and garden

REAL BIG FISH, i always dip my fish in FW prior to adding to tank. im this case with an invert, i just gave it a couple of seconds to remove the parasites probably sucked in internally of just with the LFS water. im not really sure if it works or if im right but im sure 5 sec wont hurt.
i did this by emptying the contents onto a net, dipped the net in FW in and out and on to the tank.

now that you guys mentioned it, im afraid to touch the anemmone though were not sure on this one. if the anemone did incorporate the toxins wouldnt the clownfish be afected too? does this mean the clown is also immune to the toxin now?

the LFS also told me that one of their fishermen got bitten but wasnt affected at all, maybe it just crawled and didnt bite or maybe i just dont believe them.

[Joaco]

Jonathan,
what can I say...after all we told you at the R.I.P. saltwater.com forum time ago, you still went out and got another BRO?
I quoted the article in FAMA from some months ago when I replied back then, pretty much what Ninong posted above.
You better be careful with the BRO, Mother Luck is not always in a good mood.
Jonathan, honestly my friend, get rid of that animal! it's not for you. I would hate to see you listed in the Darwin Awards 2002.

Joaco

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My webpage Updated 14th September 2000

[PerryinCA]

Wow, aside from the tetrodotoxin, hyaluronidase(enzyme which I am not familiar with), octopamine and the histamine...the rest (5-hydroxytryptamine, tyramine, tryptamine, taurine, acetylcholine, and dopamine.) Could be concocted into a very powerful and interesting illict drug [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

-Perry