I tried to find the thread but with no success... If I remember either Ninong or maybe Blue Tuna suggested putting in a couple dead shrimp about a week before putting in the uncured LR so that there is not a lot of die off......

This make sense?

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

Sorry, can't find the thread too.

The shrimp can be added with uncured lr if you're going to cycle the tank, this is the suggested method of cycling now instead of using live fish. The uncured lr and the shrimp will give off ammonia from die-off and decay.

Thanks BayWatch Babe,

I definately (spelling....? - 5 points) want to not use fish to cycle (too harsh). Will adding the shrimp ahead of time cut down on some of the kill off on my LR - thus the LR has more on it... Also, without looking it up again - the LR ratio is about 2 lbs per gallon of water....correct?

Thanks!


That make sense...? [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

You can add the uncured rock and shrimp both at the same time. The die-off from the rock depends on amount of life on it that's decaying.

If you're going to have a DSB with correct grain size particles you can use lesser LRs, maybe 1 lb/gal, as the DSB will also host micro fauna and have enough anaerobic area(less oxygen) for denitrification.


Gia

Ok, I dug up this article by FISHWHISPERER on cycling a tank using shrimp:

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Set up tank with substrate and any base rock, or uncured live rock if you are going to cure it at this time. Also hook up your heater as well. At this time, do not put cured live rock in the tank. The object is to completely cycle with no die off on live rock. Add about two or three DEAD cocktail-sized shrimp for every 50 gallons of water. The shrimp can be raw or cooked. Keep good water movement in the tank by using powerheads. Circulation is important. If you are using a canister filter/other filter with bio-media, turn that on after about three days. If you are using a protein skimmer, turn that on after 10 days. This will allow excellent decay and ensure that you effectively peak your ammonia cycle.

After two weeks, the ammonia should peak and nitrites should be starting to rise. In simple terms, the ammonia converts to nitrite, and then the nitrite to nitrate. Four weeks after you start the cycle, the nitrite should be peaking, and starting to fall. You should now start picking up your nitrate readings. Nitrate is not fatal in the same ppm range like ammonia and nitrite is. However, this applies mainly to fish. Corals, for example, are far more sensitive to nitrate than are fish. However, it is desirable to keep nitrates as low as possible even in a fish-only environment. Water additions and changes generally remove your nitrates, and over time a biological filter can be built up which will break down nitrates as well. Spent gases are released through the surface exchange, which is made much more efficient by using a powerhead to break the surface. After about six weeks, you should have a completed cycle, and now is the time to introduce waste-producing organisms (fish) to maintain that cycle. Also, if you now add your cured live rock, you will not have an ammonia spike killing off beneficial life. Some begin their tank cycle with non-cured live rock, and in the process effectively “cure” the rock. However, I recommend the shrimp even in that situation as it produces an excellent amount of decay and boosts the ammonia to start the most effective cycle. One thing you do not want to experience is adding a fish to a tank you “thought” was cycled with live rock only to have another ammonia spike with potential fatal results. This would be the case particularly if the life rock you cycled with did not produce sufficient die-off to peak your initial ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle.

On a side note, this will be when your tank smells it worse, and potentially looks its worse. You still might experience your brown diatom outbreaks and possibly at least one red-slime algae outbreak. This is all natural and no sign of poor husbandry. Your tank must “get worse” to “get better”. This is why allowing sufficient time to cycle is so critical.

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hth [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again for your help Baywatch Babe... I think what I will do is too add a couple shrimp a couple days before I add all my LR - to get the cycle started...

I found a great deal at www.etropics.com on LR at $1.75/Lb. plus $40 for each 100# to ship airport to airport...


anyone else have any comments to add to BayWatch Babes..?


[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

wow this is news for thought. AS I will be moving an established 75 gallon reef tank with cured rock and live sand bed. I was hoping to just transfer it over and now have to worry about an amonia cycle. but i may after all! Is this right???

Nucleuscracker - I can't seem to pull up the etropics website - says "future home of etropics.com". I'm getting ready to purchase LR and I'd love to hear about the quality of their LR at the price you quote. Do they only have uncured? How do I get in touch with them?

Tank cycling:
The best way to save as much life on your uncured LR is to do water changes during the cycle to keep ammonia from getting too high (which it will when using uncured LR for cycling). Also, I'd think that tossing in a couple shrimp a couple weeks prior would only help! This will get the cycle kickstarted - will there be sand or anything else to house the beneficial bacteria prior to the LR being added? Seems that if you put in the shrimp prior to the LR, there will need to be suitable living quarters for the bacteria you are trying to get started.... Maybe you could also start your tank with the LR only and add some bacteria (there are many, many products on the market for jumpstarting a tank cycle).

Good luck -

Scott

DOH - its www.etropicals.com.

They have 2 kinds - just good old LR and they say its beautiful rock with coralline algae and all - they also have a new rock Florida Ricordea. I am hoping to place my order today, send the money order and get it next week as i am going to chicago on business tomorrow...

I'll let you know how it looks....

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

I think the only way to prevent die-off from your uncured LR is to have the LR out of water for as little time as possible. Shipping is why die off occurs. The LR already has the needed bacteria for the cycle so trying to kick start that with the shrimp is unneccesary IMO. The bacteria will already be plenty in the LR. The uncured rock will have die-off from being out of the ocean. The sooner you can get it into your ocean (your tank) the less die-off you'll have. And like Scott said, do w/c to keep ammonia low to prevent further die-off from toxic levels of ammonia. [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Shelly

[This message has been edited by fishonly (edited 01-30-2001).]

Fishonly - thanks for the tip. I do plan on doing regular W/C maybe every 3 days or so... Also they are going to ship the LR airport to airport that way it will only be a day between being packed and me receiving (well, receiving it the same day its sent..)


I'll kill the shrimp idea...

Thanks again to all for your help!

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

Thanks for the website!

fishonly,
I agree there is some bacteria on the LR, but I was under the impression that if all the bacteria you needed was already on the LR, there would never be an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate jump...? I figured 'creating' some bacteria by using the shrimp a while before adding the uncured LR could only help...

Argh - [img]/ubb/confused.gif[/img] both sides sound great. Putting in a few shrimp days before adding the LR would seem the start the cycle process therefore when the LR is introduced, not as much die off would occur. But then again by adding the LR after the shrimp has been in for awhile you could be adding the LR at the moment where your ammonia and such are high - thus killing off more quickly.....

Has anyone else have any thoughts?




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Why do hobbies cost so much?

My follow up question is: How important is it to add Live Sand and if so, when?

My current Tank I did add about 4 lbs of LS to my 35 gallon hex when I set it up - but is it worth it? Am I better off getting the activator for IPSF...?


Thanks!

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Why do hobbies cost so much?

Nuke,

Ammonia comes from the breakdown of proteins, whether that is from a decaying shrimp or organisms dying on your LR.

Adding shrimp at the same time as the uncured LR will IMO serve no purpose. You should already get a large protein load and therefore ammonia spike in your tank with the LR die off.

I believe the advantage of adding shrimp to the tank would ONLY be seen if you add it PRIOR to the LR and allow it to cycle the sand (full cycle, ie after ammonia spike, nitrite spike, etc.). This will result in some developement of bacteria in the sand. The sandbed would then potentially handle SOME of the protien/ammonia load from the uncured LR die off. This MAY reduce the amount of water changes required to keep the ammonia level in a less toxic concentration.

The trick is allowing the ammonia level to reach high enough concentrations to stimulate bacterial growth but not so high as to kill life forms on the LR. Unfortunately I'm not sure what that "happy" median range is (anyone?).

Fishonly's point about shipping is well taken however. Efforts to do water changes, "pre-cycle" with shrimp etc. will do little to save LR that has been poorly handled. In the end, time of LR handling "H2O to tank" maybe the most important factor.


I assume when asking about the "live" sand, you mean sand with infuana (worms etc./visible organisms) for a DSB, vs. sand with some bacteria in it.

Personally I would add "infuana" sand after the LR has completely cycled to avoid possible die off of sand critters (worms etc.) from the ammonia spike.


HTH
Brien



[This message has been edited by Brien (edited 01-31-2001).]

Scott I agree with Brien. The LR does have tons of the bacteria already on it, but since so much life dies on the LR from shipping etc, there is not enough bacteria to handle the large increase in ammonia. Your cycle is not really a one time thing. In actuality, the amount of bacteria is constantly changing to keep up with new additions of fish, less feeding one week, or whatever changes may be going on in your tank. They reproduce fast, so once you get them (which is really what you are trying to do in the initial cycle - just get the bacteria present) you don't usually see ammonia spike unless you do something drastic because they are able to multiply quick enough to take care of it. OR they die back some too if not enough ammonia. So when you first get your new LR, they are there, but you have so much ammonia from die-off that you can still see a spike but with LR the initial cycle goes so fast because the bacteria are there, they just need a little time to grow. Then after that ammonia spike, they die back - no ammonia = no food for them. Then the dead bacteria = more ammonia = more food so they start to multiply again and so on until equilibrium is reached. Now that I've rambled so off topic I'll quit. [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Shelly