So lets see Ninong, skinned shin [img]/ubb/mad.gif[/img] chipped tooth [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img] bruises [img]/ubb/flames.gif[/img] or $150 and you get to sit back with a sixpack....HHHHHHmmmmm, let me see [img]/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

------------------
We as hobbyists need to respect the reef, educate and learn so that it will live on for all to enjoy.
bajathree
Come Dive Into
Baja Reef

[This message has been edited by bajathree (edited 02-04-2001).]

Well, first of all, for the $150 the only thing I get is a smaller truck with a lift gate. That's it. The truck driver would push the crate onto the lift gate (at least I think he would) and lower it to the ground. Nothing else. Nada! We get to take it from the lift gate.

Besides, my stand is not actually ready for the tank to be placed on it. I just wanted to get the tank into the garage. We have a furniture dolly thingy with 4 wheels to push it around; the problem is in getting it from the bed of the truck down to the dolly.

Ninong [img]/ubb/online.gif[/img]

------------------
Irrational Exuberance!

Those are some impressive tanks!

I was struck by the way they (japanese) aquascape. It seems to me that they use only the amount of live rock required to achieve the desired effect. As I have been reading the rule of the day prescribes approx. 1 lb. of LR per gallon. Are the japanese breaking this rule with their tanks?

It seems that when compared to the typical western tank (packed with LR) that the japanese tanks are quite striking.

Some of this probably can be accounted for by the low profile of the tank (or >width compared to height). The thread from RC, people spectulate that they may be running sumps crammed with LR, but I dont see much in the way of sump pictures.

It all makes me wonder if the established "guideline" of 1lb. LR per gallon maybe an exageration. Is this a residual from the days past when 1"-2" sandbed or no sandbed was the norm? Without a DSB the LR had to handle ALL the anaerobic denitrification and 1lb./gallon may have been needed. Now with DSB's becoming popular and the added anaerobic zone of DSB's is 1lb./gallon needed. In addition to the popularity of bioactive sumps/refugium as biofilters.

Maybe we should be purchasing only the amount of LR for the aquascape we desire (allowing for enough nooks for the fishies), instead of the practice at present of buying X number of pounds of LR because we have X gallon tank and then trying to make some kind of aquascape out of it.

I wonder what you all think, is this rule a remenant of the classic berlin method and not as relevant in tanks with DSB's.

Thanks
Brien

p.s. Ninong, I have been wondering when you were getting your new tank. Hope you like it and everything goes well. Specially since I am planning on ordering from the same guy in Calgary.

Hey Brien,

I'm the guy that started the thread. Yes, in my opinion, the 1lb/gallon rule is obsolete. This was a topic that was discussed extensively at the last MACNA. DSB's have allowed reefkeepers to achieve a stable biological system with much less live rock. Using less live rock opens many possibilities for creative aquascaping. It also allows more room for coral growth, more area for fish to swim(which significantly reduces stress for active fish like tangs), and it increases the surface area of the sand bed. The drawback is less room for corals. But I think the benefits outweigh the cost. For me, the most stunning tanks have very little rock, and enough corals to display a pleasing and realistic reef.

I think many reefers seek instant gratification. They go out and buy coral after coral, till the tank is too full. Then they upgrade their tanks, and process starts all over again(I'm guilty of this too[img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]). They look too cluttered for my tastes. The really neat tanks are the ones with a couple of frags here and there, and then allow them to fill in the spaces in between. There was a good example of this presented by Julian Sprung at MACNA. There was a cube shaped tank, with only a couple of pieces of rock in the center on the sand. Perched on this rock was one huge branching acropora with several chromis darting in and out. That's it. The staghorn filled the tank, not the live rock. Pretty cool if you ask me.

I've actually convinced my girlfriend to upgrade her fowlr to a reef, so that I can throw some of my hardier corals in there, to free up some room and hopefully achieve some of that beauty.

It's all a matter of preference. I started that thread, because I wanted to share what I thought was beautifully skilled aquascaping. I am secretly trying to make the wall of rock look unpopular.[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

Here is some more info on using less rock, and about creating a low relief reef. http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...er/default.asp

Here's another good article: http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp

Hi Brien ~

That's right, I forgot you were thinking about ordering your tank from Inter-American. Well, at least you're a lot closer to Calgary than I am. Ltspd wants to order his new tank from the same place but he's working on having it shipped air freight, which may actually be cheaper than having it trucked. My tank is probably heavier than the original estimate of 240-260 lbs. because the crate weighs 420 lbs.

This is the lastest update. I talked to the trucking company this morning and learned that the crating and internal packaging added about 8" to the tank's actual dimensions. This makes it about 2" too tall to fit through the back of the Ford Explorer. They have arranged for a cartage company with a smaller power lift gate truck to pick it up this evening and deliver it to my garage tomorrow afternoon. For a charge of $81.42 they will truck it the 50 miles from the terminal and set it down just outside my garage.

I will let everybody know what it looks like once I get it uncrated. I expect to take pics with my Olympus 35mm camera which I will send to Scott to scan for me. Sorry, but I don't have a digital camera.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I agree with Markv that a good deep live sand bed provides as much, if not more, denitrification potential as the live rock. Most of the American tanks that appear "full" of live rock actually have more than 2 lbs. per gallon. I don't think you will find that 1 lb. per gallon is too much; it would certainly leave lots of open space. You don't begin to achieve the "full of rock" appearance until you have more than 1-1/2 lbs. per gallon.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

------------------
Irrational Exuberance!

Ahh, I remember questioning the liverock per gallon rule a while ago and getting jumped on from a great height with people saying you couldnt possibly do it (what a load of c$£p), now everybodys doing it... ho-hum...



------------------
"There can be only one"

Next question, how do they get away without cross bracing the tanks?

Those open tanks are so cool, but I am a little concerned that the "open" water is is an "open" invitation for kid mischief (my girlfriend has 2).

Brien

I am wondering that myself, are they braver than us??

Is better silicon a possability? or perhaps they have very thick bases with lots of support along the bottom edges of the verticle panels???



------------------
"There can be only one"

Hey Ninong,

See my post on the Japanese Reef Central thread.[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Markv:

Hey Ninong,

See my post on the Japanese Reef Central thread.[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

OK, I responded over there.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



------------------
Irrational Exuberance!

Hi all,

I also agree that the x lbs. of live rock per gallon is a holdover from “classic (bare-bottomed) Berlin systems.

I my opinion, a DSB is more efficient as a biological processor than live rock.

In my current tank, I am using about .75 lbs of rock per gallon. This has the following advantages.

1 With a DSB, Less live rock is needed. (less $) much of your live rock “poundage” is used in building up the base of your live rock structure.

2 It is hard to get good circulation throughout a “wall of rock structure” Circulation from all sides make live rock a more efficient biological processor and much less prone to bad circulation issues like cyno and hair algae.

3 More room for your sand bed. Many of the LPS critters that we keep are sand bed creatures in any case.

If you also have a algae filter, you “need” for x number of pounds of live rock is further reduced.

Regards,

Scott

------------------
The definition of an expert is a washed-up drip under pressure.
You can see my reeftank at http://www.homestead.com/spasse/