Water Changes

[mandarin_g_money]

OK, I know I should know this but after you read so much stuff you realy don't know any more. If my Amonia, Nitrates and Nitrites are in good standing (0 on everything)do I need to be doing water changes? My levels have been steady for about 4 weeks now, I have added 2 fish. I know this isn't alot, but I haven't even seed a little change. I read that people do water changes to keep nitrates low, but then I read other articles about people who don't do water changes that often. I have always done regular water changes in my fresh water tanks, and even in the saltware tanks I have in years past. Now I'm not sure what to do.

[jmick01]

People who are concerned w/ calcium, strontium and other trace elements(in a reef type aquaria) might do frequent water changes to keep there levels up, but w/ a fish only tank I dont think it would be as necessary. I might even go as far as to have your param's checked by someone else's test kit just to make sure your's is ok. IMO

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Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[jmick01]

also dumb ? but are you using a saltwater test kit? Some kits are for freshwater only. And you will find that the "dual purpose" kits are not as accurate.

JMM

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Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[mandarin_g_money]

Yea, I am using a saltwater test kit.

[jmick01]

OK

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Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[saltinpitt]

Whenever you question if water changes are necessary ask yourself this question.... If I sat in one 6'x6'x6' room and all I did was smoke, what would the air quality become in a little while?

Do your fish a favor and change 20% of the water at least once a month.

[fishrule]

Mandarin, I change 30 gallons on my 200 gallon fish only tank every weekend! It keeps my nitrates down, and also I know it has to been good for the fish because I am removing some of their waste. I have 16 fish in there. I think if water is changed often and they are fed vitamins, our fish will live very long!

[jmick01]

Fishrule,
Why fix what isn't broken??? If all h20 parameters are within the limits(ph, salinity,ammonia,nitrite,nitrate,and all others) as mandarin stated, and he is running fo tank, and he is feeding Zoe or some other food supplement, why change the h2o?? He is not running a reef. The fish should get all there nutrition from the food and the supplement. Also about the waste any tiny amount of detivores will take care of the waste of 2 fish. To the statement about smoking: Yeah if I smoked(which I dont) I would change my water on a very regular basis as the effects of smoking can be seen on the inside of a smokers house(ie: yellow tinge on walls, long lingering smoke smell) the 2nd hand smoke is by far worse than that of what the smoker recieves(proven fact by the American Heart Association) so consider your fish as second hand smokers and the ill-effects of such.

JMM

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Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[This message has been edited by jmick01 (edited 03-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by jmick01 (edited 03-16-2001).]

[ScottC]

Fishrule...

where are you getting your water?

Scott

[mandarin_g_money]

Wow, Looks like I hit a nerve with this question. I have some rebutles though.

First off for saltinpitt and the whole smoking thing.....that is a good point, what you left out was the fact that if the 6x6x6 room was like my aquarium, it would have an oxygen scrubber, ventalation, and some way to clean the air. My fish are not swimming in a tank only, I have a protien skimmer to remove particulate matter and amonia from the water, I have a biological filter that keeps amonia and ntrates in check (very well I might add) and I have carbon that removes toxins from the water. Not to mention the fact that I am testing the water every week, if not more, and if something needs to be fixed I know the apropriate acction.

On to the next one, as far as water changes go a couple of you mention that the reason that you do the changes is to remove the fish waste, and to help keep nitrates low. My original question pointed out that all of these levels are checked and are at ZERO. I am using the same test kit that alot of the LFS's use, and my next door neighbor also uses. They get different results in their tanks because the environments are different. What I am saying is that I have faith in my test kit. So I don't see how doing water changes removes waste and nitrates if you don't have any. I know this can and will change as I add fish, maybe it will maybe it won't.

I can see doing water changes to replace trace elements and other thing that get depleted, or built up that our conventional equipment replace or remove. My only question is what are those elements that get depleted and what are those things that build up over time that water changes take care of. I am not saying I don't do water changes, If it is better for the fish that is great and I will do my part to give them the best home. It just seems that when I ask this question the only answers I get are, to remove amonia and nitrates. Again if I don't have amonia or nitrates, what are the other reason for changing water.

As for ScottC....I get my water straight from my tap, I test it for Clorine, Cloramine, and Phosphates. I have city water and the clorine and Cloramine test show a little of each so I use amquel to remove these. I have not seen any phosphates in my tap water. The only thing that bugs me about my water is that it is VERY VERY hard, which makes it impossible to adjust PH. My PH stays at a constant 8.4.

I look forware to the next set of responses, I think I am getting somewhere with this question finaly......

[the_blue_tuna]

Just so you are aware ,,,the use of Amquel will void the results of any ammonia test kit. Whether it effects nitrite or nitrate I have not heard but I can see where this would also be possible .Not that you have problems in this area , just saying that the test kits may not be as accurate as we would like to think.As far as your pH goes , what would you like to adjust it to?

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In this hobby patience is not a virtue,,,,,its mandatory.
Jim's Marine Links

[fishrule]

Scott C, I am just using regular tap water, no problems with it so far.

[saltinpitt]

The smoking analogy was to make you realize that if you smoke in a small room all your life you would want all the mechanical cleaning that you mentioned. However, wouldn't it be great to get some fresh air every once in awhile? [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] No matter how you try to remove the smoke you will NEVER remove all the pollutants!

The same is true of your fish tank. Yes we look at our pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, copper, phosphate, magnesium, calcium, yada yada yada but we never look for the smaller trace elements. What is happening to these levels?

ON the other hand, no one is going to convince me that changing 20% of your water every 2-3 weeks is bad for your tank! [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Listen we all spend thousands of dollars on this hobby. Why not spend an hour every 2-3 weeks and do a very simple thing to improve the overall health of the tank.

[tendar]

do a 10-20% water change once a mounth when you clean your fitlers.

[the_blue_tuna]

I do water changes every other week in my FOWLR tank for a couple of reasons.1 my LR has dusters,worms and who knows what else , that I have not seen and these guys need all the elements that saltwater has to offer. Second and more importantly(this is just my opinion , I have no scientific proof to back it up) after living in a constant environment , such as the ocean lets say, for a couple hundred thousand years an organism like a fish adapts to use what is available to it. Yes we check our ammonia, nitrite , and nitrate all the time.Some , although its a small segment in FO's check for Iodide.This link http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp shows a check on 10 different major elements in commercial salt mixes. Do any of us ever check levels on all 10 of these? I doubt it. Then you have dozens of other elements that are not measured because of their supposed insignificance.To test for all of these would be just short of impossible. So because we cant or dont check these levels , does that mean the fish no longer need them? I feel that it is in the fishes best interest to do water changes.Maybe I just need to get a life???Thats JMHO.

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In this hobby patience is not a virtue,,,,,its mandatory.
Jim's Marine Links

[jmick01]

The Blue Tuna,
I have never heard of amoquel causing ill-effects to nitrite or nitrates. But there is a new product from Seachem called Prime which does remove all 3 of the big ones or binds them somehow. Also I agree in doing h2o changes but, 1 a week seems an awfull lot for a FO tank. Yes fish still need the trace elements, but IMO not like a reef tank. If trace elements were of a high concern 1 change every other week would in my book be suffise.

JMM



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Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[mandarin_g_money]

This is all GREAT information....I apreciate everybody's responses to the question...I agree with the fact that water changes can't hurt so I will more faithful with my water changes. Next question....does anyone have any tips on the best way to change water other than filling a bucket and putting that in your tank. how long should I let the saltwater mix sit before I put it in the tank. Right now I fill 5 gallon buckets with salt mix and water, let it sith with a power head moving and mixing the water. After it sits I then pump it in to my sump. Any suggestion or is this the way to do it.

[clown-t]

whooow!!!!go next door and steal it when he's gone

[Cinco]

I may be doing this wrong but, Water changes seem very disruptive to me.

I shut down the pumps and siphon out 12 of my 60 gal's into a rubbermaid tub, dump the tub, fill with RO and add my tank heater as well as an extra 6" heater and heat to about 77 which is where my tank will be by the time I get the new water warmed up. Add instant ocean and mix until disolved @ 32ppm. Then move the heater and *pour* the water into the tank with a mixing bowl.
Is there a better way?

Another thing I haven't heard anything about is do you adjust the amount of water you change to compensate for less water in the tank due to displacement from LR? Seems like if I had 70+lbs of live rock 12 gallons would make things awefull shallow.

[fishrule]

Cinco, I have a pump in my bucket to refill the tank with, so I don't have to pour it in.