[LazyReef]

50 Algae Detritus eating Reef Snails

$25 includes shipping

100/$40

Ilyanassa snails (Ilyanassa obsoleta)

100% Satisfaction Guaranteed

These are Full Grown harvested salt water snails, NOT small tank raised snails. They are always in stock, cleaned, quaranteened, and ready to ship every Monday & Tuesday.

They are classified by some as Nassarius obsoleta. They are great for cleaning sand beds, refugia, and sumps and keeping your tank glass clean. I have kept these snails in my reefs for years and use the sales to support my reef tank hobby. I am open to trade deals with other hobbyists

Arrive Alive Guarantee

I would reccomend that you keep 1-2 of these snails per gallon. These little snails cruise through the substrate like little moles. They like to eat the crap and detritus stuck in the substrate. In the process they turn your substrate over helping to keep it clean and helping to lower phosphates.

ARE YOU EMBRASSED BY YOUR AQUARIUM because the glass is always dirty when people POP by? You'll like them because of their great glass cleaning action. These snails clean you glass at night while the lights are out and no one is looking.

They clean your sand! Highly reccomended as a member of your cleaning crew. One of the most ideal scavenger and detritus eaters, these snails are perfect for the reef aquarium, quickly consuming detritus, uneaten food, decaying organics, and fish waste. They do not eat Caulerpa sp. and are perfect for a refugium or scrubber. I keep them throughout my system. I also sell Caulerpa prolifera with/life if you need some to for your refugia. Contact me for info.

Wild collected, cleaned, quaranteened and shipped by Marine Biologist with 15 years reef keeping experience. "I have used these in my reef for many years and highly reccomend them to keep your sand and glass clean." - Ken

Snails are shipped FREE in special breathable bags USPS PRIORTIY Mail at no cost to you! Heat Packs are never an adittional charge. I am a hobbyist, not a store.

[Pet Lover]

Originally Posted by LazyReef

50 Algae Detritus eating Reef Snails

$25 includes shipping

100/$40

Ilyanassa snails (Ilyanassa obsoleta)

100% Satisfaction Guaranteed

These are Full Grown harvested salt water snails, NOT small tank raised snails. They are always in stock, cleaned, quaranteened, and ready to ship every Monday & Tuesday.

They are classified by some as Nassarius obsoleta. They are great for cleaning sand beds, refugia, and sumps and keeping your tank glass clean. I have kept these snails in my reefs for years and use the sales to support my reef tank hobby. I am open to trade deals with other hobbyists

Arrive Alive Guarantee

I would reccomend that you keep 1-2 of these snails per gallon. These little snails cruise through the substrate like little moles. They like to eat the crap and detritus stuck in the substrate. In the process they turn your substrate over helping to keep it clean and helping to lower phosphates.

ARE YOU EMBRASSED BY YOUR AQUARIUM because the glass is always dirty when people POP by? You'll like them because of their great glass cleaning action. These snails clean you glass at night while the lights are out and no one is looking.

They clean your sand! Highly reccomended as a member of your cleaning crew. One of the most ideal scavenger and detritus eaters, these snails are perfect for the reef aquarium, quickly consuming detritus, uneaten food, decaying organics, and fish waste. They do not eat Caulerpa sp. and are perfect for a refugium or scrubber. I keep them throughout my system. I also sell Caulerpa prolifera with/life if you need some to for your refugia. Contact me for info.

Wild collected, cleaned, quaranteened and shipped by Marine Biologist with 15 years reef keeping experience. "I have used these in my reef for many years and highly reccomend them to keep your sand and glass clean." - Ken

Snails are shipped FREE in special breathable bags USPS PRIORTIY Mail at no cost to you! Heat Packs are never an adittional charge. I am a hobbyist, not a store.

Hi,
Do these handle shipping pretty good ?
What is the survival rate ?
Thank you, Caryn

[Poseidon]

Aren't these snails originally harvested from more temperant waters? Somewhere in the 72-74 degree range??? Just curious how well they would do at 80-82 degrees....

[Pet Lover]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Aren't these snails originally harvested from more temperant waters? Somewhere in the 72-74 degree range??? Just curious how well they would do at 80-82 degrees....

OK, Would they be ok in an 82" tank ???
I am VERY interested in these and would like for you to please answer the questions above befire ordering !!!!

Thank you!

[Ninong]

Information on Ilyanassa obsoleta:

Ilyanassa obsoleta is the valid classification. The synonym Nassarius obsoletus is invalid and has been for decades.

This mudsnail is native to the western Atlantic from Nova Scotia to northern Florida. It was transported to San Francisco Bay in 1907 and it is now extremely abundant there. In fact, it is the dominant mudflat gastropod in San Francisco Bay (Nichols & Thompson, 1985b). Carlton (1979a) suggests that it was probably introduced there on Atlantic oysters between 1901 and 1907. Atlantic oysters were cultivated in Alameda (SF Bay).

From San Francisco Bay it has spread north as far as British Columbia.

It has been intensively studied in the Atlantic where it has been shown to have significant effects on mudflat community structure and sediment composition (Grant, 1965; Sibert, 1968).

Grodhaus and Keh (1959) found it to harbor five species of trematode flatworms, including the schistosome Austrobilharzia variglandis which is responsible for "swimmers' itch."

Race (1979, 1982) demonstrated competitive displacement and predation of the native hornsnail Cerithidea californica.

Interesting threads on this topic:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...light=obsoleta

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...light=obsoleta

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...light=obsoleta

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...light=obsoleta

Nassarius spp. snails became popular for reef tanks with deep sand beds a few years back when Dr. Ron Shimek wrote an article recommending them. He was talking about true Nassarius, such as Nassarius vibex that are commonly available from the Florida Keys. True Nassarius snails do not eat algae and they are not predatory; they are scavengers that eat only carrion and meaty detritus.

[Pet Lover]

So would these be good for out tank or not ???
Thanks,
Caryn

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Pet Lover

So would these be good for out tank or not ???
Thanks,
Caryn

I suggest you read Dr. Shimek's comments in the links that I provided.

P.S. -- I just remembered that those links take you to one of Reef Central's "expert" forums and you must register first before you can view them.

I think this answer that Dr. Shimek gave to someone who had just purchased some of these Ilyanassa obsoleta snails is a good summary of his views on this question:

I would avoid purchasing the Ilyanassa. Being temperate animals they do not do well at normal reef temperatures (they prefer a high end of around 60 deg. F), although they will tolerate reef temperatures for a while. At such temperatures they have an acclerated metabolism due to the temperature increase above their normal range, and this kills them prematurely.

Additionally, they are scavenger/predators and will attack and eat some small animals as well being (pretty good) scavengers. True Nassarius don't attack any healthy animals.

As you have the animals already, they will probably be fine to add to your system. I doubt they will do major harm. However, they will not be as good a scavenger as the true Nassarius, and they will not live as long either.

[Pet Lover]

THank You Ninong !

[LazyReef]

With all due respect, Dr. Shimek's comments are usually ignorant in my opinion and I routinely discount him as in-experienced. He has published many articles that I find inaccurate and short sighted in actual demonstration with in reef aquarium. I have had discussions on other boards and threads in the past with him and find much of his advice not well represented by actual performance or first hand knowledge.



On the other hand, I have used these snails in my reef for more than 7 years and they work excellent. I have good turn over of substrate and their glass cleaning ability is unparalleled. They experience wide tidal fluctuations in salinity and temperature. They live almost anywhere as Ninong has stated. They are quite happy in the water of a hobbyist marine tank. They do not attack anything that I have in my tank or that I have ever seen in the wild. They feed mostly on brown diatoms and detritus.



I have lived and fished and researched the waters where I collect them all my life, I am educated as a marine scientist at Southampton, and Stonybrook U, and I have worked as a Chemical Oceanographer for DOE many years. I have imported, worked in reef aquaria shops, and represented manufactures of marine fish products for years. I am very knowledgeable about these snails and reef aquaria and strongly disagree with the portrayal of Ilyanassa obsoleta snails as poor candidates for a reef or fish tank. These snails will break down any piece of crap or algae they can get at and reduce the amount of nutrients, especially phosphate from accumulating in your substrate (I maintain ½”-1” for aesthetics). They will not harm a single thing in your tank.



When Shimek states that Ilyanassa obsoleta are predators he is falling into the same trap that he is often found guilty of… no experience and not enough research. They are recognized as scavengers and will eat the flesh off of a dead fish but they have no mechanism for predation and do not even bother sessile invertebrates or worms. The genus of Ilyanassa and Nassarius are very closely related and have many common characteristics. Often a genus will be reorganized due to reproductive methods or juvenile characteristics that are very finely debated. If anything I find the Ilyanassa superior to the Nassarius in their ability to keep the glass clean. Lazy I am. I hate cleaning glass.



Statements to the effect that “Being temperate animals they do not do well at normal reef temperatures (they prefer a high end of around 60 deg. F)” is also incorrect. In fact in the summer months they are broiling out on the mud flats or in shallow bays that are quite warm. Let me put it this way... If your temperature spikes and you loose everything in your tank, the only thing left alive will be these snails. You can only kill them by freezing them or boiling them. You can even cycle a tank with them in it.



Often in the reef hobby, there are conflicting views as there is in science. For every paper that proves there is, there is one that proves there is not. I have had many conversations with other “professionals” in the hobby and many agree these snails are very beneficial to maintaining a reef tank.



I guarantee not only alive arrival but your 100% satisfaction with the snails. I am not a store, I do not sell anything but these snails and what I grow in my tanks and make in my lab. I am a 100% hobbyist and use the money to pay for my hobby.

[norcal420]

Still Got Some?

[Brian35]

im also interested. Please PM me.

Thanks

[Samper]

Sounds like a good arguement brewing up.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by LazyReef

With all due respect, Dr. Shimek's comments are usually ignorant in my opinion and I routinely discount him as in-experienced.

You can certainly disagree with him if you wish but why would you consider him inexperienced? He set up his first marine tank more than four decades ago and has been involved professionally in marine biology and ecology since he started his graduate work at the University of Washington Friday Harbor Laboratories in 1971. He received his Ph.D. for his primary work in gastropod biology/ecology in 1977. He has been diving since 1971. He set up his first personal reef aquarium in 1991. So I would consider him experienced.

On the other hand, I have used these snails in my reef for more than 7 years and they work excellent.

Good for you.

They do not attack anything that I have in my tank or that I have ever seen in the wild.

I can't disagree with that statement because I have no idea what you have in your tank or what you have ever seen in the wild. However, it has been documented in the peer reviewed scientific literature that Ilyanassa obsoleta can be predatory on other snails and it has been documented in the literature that they act as host for one of the life stages of five different species of trematode flatworms. (See my earlier post on 4/25/04.)

I am very knowledgeable about these snails and reef aquaria and strongly disagree with the portrayal of Ilyanassa obsoleta snails as poor candidates for a reef or fish tank.

The thrust of Dr. Shimek's comments about I. obsoleta is that they are not as well suited for a reef aquarium as Nassarius vibex. He has advised people who have already purchased them that they will probably do no harm in their tanks but that he considers N. vibex a better choice.

When Shimek states that Ilyanassa obsoleta are predators he is falling into the same trap that he is often found guilty of… no experience and not enough research. They are recognized as scavengers and will eat the flesh off of a dead fish but they have no mechanism for predation and do not even bother sessile invertebrates or worms.

According to Dr. Shimek, they will sometimes attack living animals. I did not do much research into this either but I did find the references that I cited on April 25th. above. I don't know if I would find more or not because I do not have access to the professional journals where this information is most likely available.

If anything I find the Ilyanassa superior to the Nassarius in their ability to keep the glass clean. Lazy I am. I hate cleaning glass.

That's true. Ilyanassa will eat algae, Nassarius will not.

Statements to the effect that “

Being temperate animals they do not do well at normal reef temperatures (they prefer a high end of around 60 deg. F)” is also incorrect. In fact in the summer months they are broiling out on the mud flats or in shallow bays that are quite warm. Let me put it this way... If your temperature spikes and you loose everything in your tank, the only thing left alive will be these snails. You can only kill them by freezing them or boiling them. You can even cycle a tank with them in it.

They are quite able to adapt to extreme cold weather as evidenced by their natural range from Nova Scotia to northern Florida. They survive freezing temperatures by migrating from the mud flats to subtidal areas. However, if they were truly tropical, rather than temperate, why haven't they extended their range further south? Even on the west coast where they were accidentally introduced into San Francisco Bay about 100 years ago, they now range from the central California coast all the way up to British Columbia but they are not found in Baja California.

That is not to contradict your experience that they do well in your tank, but it serves as confirmation that they are a temperate species.

I guarantee not only alive arrival but your 100% satisfaction with the snails. I am not a store, I do not sell anything but these snails and what I grow in my tanks and make in my lab. I am a 100% hobbyist and use the money to pay for my hobby.

Your ad correctly identifies what you are selling: Harvested (collected) Ilyanassa obsoleta. Nothing wrong with that. If people want to try them in their tank at least they know what they are buying. There is another fellow on eBay, who has also posted on Reef Central, who insisted on advertising his I. obsoleta snails as Nassarius obsoleta. He finally changed his ad copy to read "Nassarius I.O. snails," whatever that means.

When I lived in the San Francisco Bay area, I saw thousands of I. obsoleta snails on the mud flats in the South Bay.

[Brian35]

i am interested as well if there are any snails left. Please message me with details.

thanks

[LazyReef]

Hey Ninong,

You are very polite with your discussion. Thank you. I define experience as actually working, using, harvesting, not citing references of others. I go back in this hobby a little bit longer and I have spent many months in the Pacific diving day and night, and years in the Atlantic. I have worked from the Kane Basin to the tip of South America, Tonga, Fiji, and the Solomons. Not that this qualifies me any better. My opinion is just that, my opinion. It is however, based on realtime hands on, and educated observation of these snails in aquarium and in the wild. I have differed with the Dr. on other issues such as Deep Sand Beds, and Flourescent pigments in corals in the past and base my opinion of him on past discussion. With due respect, he is entitled to his opinion and he has written some articles I agree with and others I don't. I only speak stongly on issues on which I feel I have direct experience. I do not argue cite against cite. Nor do I jump the gun with new concepts. I do not have a deep sand bed and have never used miracle mud :-) I was very impressed with Adey's research and I am a firm believer in an algae scrubber. I use Caulerpa prolifera. (My personal opinion is that prolifera is in the wrong genus, but only time will tell)

With regards to the temperature at which these snails survive: You previously referenced the snails are found to Northern Florida. This range includes Georgia, South Carolina, etc. This is quite warm water, especially given they live mostly in estuaries. I would know. I collect them and the temperature is like bath water. I keep my reef around 77 F. The high range of 60 F for these snails is ludicrous. They live in hot puddles all summer long. The bays and estuaries are quite warm.

With regards to their diet. I have never seen them dine on LIVE small animals. They simply do not have the mechanisms to catch such. I find them amongst Ulva sp (sea lettuce), and dead grasses feeding off detritual material in the marshes. Where a dead fish is found, they will be all under it, but not on fresh flesh. They like it rotten. Cites that you reference have documented them catching, attacking live animals? Drilling shells? That would be sweet... pictures? Data? Biology is a very soft science and observations often not very well "controlled". I sincerely doubt it and I am sure you could find papers that dispute this if you did a lit search. If there is not one, I surely could write one, but I am far to Lazy....Offering only a one sided view of citations does not due justice to the scientific method. Debating biology research is not worth the time IMO.

Regarding the status of the genus... They have previously been classifed as Nassarius, and are often referred to as one or the other. All scientists argue about classification. Phycologists differ on how algae are related and it never ends. I happen to agree with you that they are Illyanassa, but it could still be argued by some. Other of the Nassarius have been renamed such as trivittata sp. Not for nothing, but I even collect N. vibex with the I. obsoleta in NY. They live here also. See Marine Animals of Southern New England and New York by Howard M. Weiss.

There are others on eBay that do sell these snails. They do use the old genus for advertising purposes and it may be a little misleading. In my ads I do try to correct this and I purposely word my ads to educate the consumer on this issue. Other sellers even state that their snails are tank raised, or that they are a cross between vibex and obsoleta. This is quite ridiculous, and makes me laugh. They do lay eggs, but I have never gotten any to live to snail. Great plankton though...

I do not know how others collect or clean them, but I have a procedure for quarantine and cleaning before introducing them to aquaria. I keep 3000 in stock at any one time and have them from two weeks to a month in constantly fresh (natural, free, and lazy) water. The nematode you mention is hosted only intermediately by obsoleta and ends up in ducks, gulls, and geese depending what cites you read. It also starts there. It is prevalent mostly in the very spring for a couple of weeks and I have never had a problem. Other snails such as vibex and other close relatives may also contain the same, to add some perspective.

You get what you pay for, and you have to be a wise and educated buyer on eBay, especially when it comes to livestock. My feedback (EPOutfitters) stands on its own and many aquarists love these snails as evidenced by their comments.

My main point, is not that they belong on Pacific reefs, but they do a great job keeping brown diatoms off my glass and my substrate clean. They do not hurt any of my corals or fish and are very good at controlling the nutrient load in the minimal substrate I maintain for astethics. They do not die off (far less than astrea and turbans). They can right themselves and are quite reasonable, are not bull dozers, and are very hardy. They serve a function quite well.

I really appreciate your discussion and think that your are quite wise to question these snails. How about you try some, and find out first hand? I promise you will not get swimmers itch :-)

[saltjunkie]

i purchased some.. from i dont know who.. they seemed to ship very well..as soon as i dropped them in my tank they went to work burrowing.. it is neat to watch them all come up when i feed...
only time will tell .. and in this hobby, you have to learn from your mistakes, and so far, it seems ok.
If the worst they do is die, then it is a win win situation for me, as all my snails eventually die and i have to replace them every so often..

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by LazyReef

With regards to the temperature at which these snails survive: You previously referenced the snails are found to Northern Florida. This range includes Georgia, South Carolina, etc.

I did NOT reference the temperature at which these snails SURVIVE. I referenced their NATURAL RANGE. Their natural range is reported to be from Nova Scotia to northern Florida on the East Coast and from British Columbia to Morro Bay on the West Coast. I did mention that they survive quite well in extremely cold environments by migrating from the intertidal zone to the sub-tidal zone. That's how they survive as far north as Nova Scotia.

I would agree with Dr. Shimek that an animal's natural range is an important factor to take into consideration when comparing it with other similar animals that are under consideration for inclusion in tropical reef aquaria.

With regards to their diet. I have never seen them dine on LIVE small animals. They simply do not have the mechanisms to catch such.

Why would they have to have a "mechanism to catch" something? Would it be difficult for them to "catch" another species of snail? What about sessile molluscs, such as Tridacnids? Are they all that difficult to catch? I'm just using that as an example, I'm not implying that they are predators on Tridacnids because I really don't know.

Cites that you reference have documented them catching, attacking live animals? Drilling shells? That would be sweet... pictures? Data?

Where did you get that idea? The only thing I said was that "they can be predatory on other snails" and I cited the studies that documented that. I did not claim that those references supported anything other than snail predation. Why are you making up things that I did not write?

Perhaps you are referring to a statement made by Dr. Shimek in one of his replies on Reef Central? He said they were "scavenger/predators and will attack and eat some small animals." I don't recall him mentioning anything about "drilling shells."

I wrote: "According to Dr. Shimek, they will sometimes attack living animals. I did not do much research into this either but I did find the references that I cited on April 25th. above. I don't know if I would find more or not because I do not have access to the professional journals where this information is most likely available."

In my post of April 25th., I specifically stated that:

It has been intensively studied in the Atlantic where it has been shown to have significant effects on mudflat community structure and sediment composition (Grant, 1965; Sibert, 1968).

Grodhaus and Keh (1959) found it to harbor five species of trematode flatworms, including the schistosome Austrobilharzia variglandis which is responsible for "swimmers' itch."

Race (1979, 1982) demonstrated competitive displacement and predation of the native hornsnail Cerithidea californica.

I made no other claims. I pointed out that I did NOT do much research into this topic (other than the above references) but that there might be other information in the various scientific journals. You will probably find documentation for Shimek's claims if you research this further. Considering that he is a professional molluscan expert with more than three decades of experience in this field, I wouldn't discount his claims without further research.

Regarding the status of the genus... They have previously been classifed as Nassarius, and are often referred to as one or the other. All scientists argue about classification.

The accepted genus has been Ilyanassa for the past thirty years but older references may still refer to them as Nassarius. I was not aware that this classification is in dispute.

The nematode you mention is hosted only intermediately by obsoleta...

Which is EXACTLY what I said. On 9/15/04 I wrote:

However, it has been documented in the peer reviewed scientific literature that Ilyanassa obsoleta can be predatory on other snails and it has been documented in the literature that they act as host for one of the life stages of five different species of trematode flatworms. (See my earlier post on 4/25/04.)

Other snails such as vibex and other close relatives may also contain the same, to add some perspective.

Perhaps, but I haven't come across any references to that effect, have you? Or was that just speculation?

[LazyReef]

Ninong,
Sorry, but you have exhausted me. I did not mean to get into a point by point arguement. Your points have merit and they are well represented. My offer stands. Do you want to try some? Email me EPOutfitters@optonline.net.

[Elmo18]

I tried some awhile ago, these will not live long in reef tanks. Constant 80 degree temps kill these snails. The same will do with Catalina gobies, etc etc. Temperate does not equal reef tank temperatures.

Best to go with Nassarius vibex or the large Tongan/Indo-pacific Nassarius sp. The first is an Atlantic species, the latter is of Indo-Pacific origins.

- Elmo

[LazyReef]

This is where I disagree and I have a lot of success keeping them alive in my tank which is 77-80. I even keep 2 cold water Mercenaria mercenaria clams alive there and they are definitly cold water. I have had them for over two years in the back of the reef work. I expected someone would eat them, but they just keep on living. I find that these snails are more suceptible to getting eaten for food than others and you may find that a paticular fish is eating them in you tank, but they do not die due to temperature. This could be said about all snails (that they are food). I think we loose more snails due to fish eating them then we think. Especially if they don't right themselves quickly.