[newellio]

I just set up a 120 gal tank. i put 4 domino damsels 4 clowns and 2 turbo snails to start the tank. with 2 days the damsels and the snails all died. i ran all the test kits i could including bringing water samples to 2 fish stores and we all returned the same results. that the water was fine. however i'm not sure if they tested for copper or any metals. i then did a complete water change and replaced it with distilled water. again i brought that water to a fish store and it turned up ok. however when i put in a snail it died within a few minutes.

everything is new except the tank and the substrate with is tahitian moon sand. if it is a case of poisoning if i remove all the sand will it still have infected the silcone in the tank. i am running chemi-pure in the filters now to try and remove the metals(advice from fish guys). anyone have any suggestions.

thanks,

tony

[kburns24]

I am sorry to hear about your bad run of luck so far. Just a few questions; what is your salinity? water temperature? who recommended the moon sand? I can't personally remember any of my friends using black moon sand in their reef tanks.

If your salinity is within tolerance and your temperature isn't too high I assume that the sand is leaching serious metal.

[newellio]

salinity is about 1.022 and water temp hovers around 80.
ph was the only thing in question and that was about 8.5.

Originally Posted by kburns24

I am sorry to hear about your bad run of luck so far. Just a few questions; what is your salinity? water temperature? who recommended the moon sand? I can't personally remember any of my friends using black moon sand in their reef tanks.

If your salinity is within tolerance and your temperature isn't too high I assume that the sand is leaching serious metal.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by newellio

salinity is about 1.022 and water temp hovers around 80.
ph was the only thing in question and that was about 8.5.

Hi Tony and Welcome to Reefland!

First off, was your tank cycled prior to introducing livestock? What I mean by cycled is that Nitrogen cycle was over and Nitrite and ammonia was undetectable. Introducing four damsels and a clownfish to start a tank sounds very cruel to me. I mean, why not introduce one fish or couple of snails at first if all the parameters are in line ?
I think the PH at 8.5 wasn't a reason why your fish and snails all died but perhaps acclimation time was not sufficient.
I also would recomment to get good quality test kits and not rely on your LFS.

[newellio]

Yes, before i put any fish in the tank i checked all the levels, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, water hardness. everything checked out fine( i should probably have a copper test but at the time i do not). I agree with you that Ph was not the reason the fish died. I acclimated the fish for about 45 minutes and that included temp adjustedment and then slowly adding my water to their bucket i put them in. I prolly should have been a little more specific in my original post. The snails died almost immediatley, however the damsels lived for about 2-3 days. The clowns are still alive, however i took them out of the big tank and moved them to a smaller bucket with a new mix of salt water. The clowns did appear to be sick when i took them out, but are doing much better now.

I do have all the kits neccessary expect for a copper test. The only reason i brought them to my LFS was to verify my results. I only have 1 kit and the stores i brought it to tried a couple different kits for me.


i removed all the sand from the tank and am now trying to clean it with fresh water. i'm getting pretty fed up with this so i'm going skins and bones and am going to slowly put it back together.

This is my first attempt at a tank this large. I've only dealt with nano reefs before 5, 15 gallon and have never lost anything. I truly do belive the sand is whats giving me the problem, i was just looking for some other insite or maybe someone else that has had a problem with this type of sand.

[zhenya]

Hi Tony,

I didn't mean to be harsh or anything like that. Sorry if it came accross this way. I have more questions
Was your tank new or used?The reason I asked is that if you bought this used,sometimes people use copper to treat ich and this could be the problem. As far as sand, I have no idea what that moon sand is all about but I assume it is silica based sand. beyond it being black color I don't see a problem with it,unless it was artificially colored and that could leach something into water column. Did you save the bag that the sand came in?perhaps there is some data on the back of it that you can post here?

PS. Snails dying almost instantly leads me to believe that there is some sort of poisoning in the water: copper or some other heavy metal.

[Reefland]

Welcome to Reefland!

How old is the tank that you placed the animals in?
Is there any live rock in the tank?

I don't know if copper is the problem, it would definately affect the snails but the damsels would not have been (unless it was in some kind of large dosage). You mentioned in your first post that you put these fish and snails in to start the tank; if it has not gone through a cycle that would be why the fish died. Like Gene, I don't mean to sound harsh and sure don't want to question your knowledge; just want to help. Answer those two questions above and we'll get going on figuring this out.

Regards,
Scott Z.

[newellio]

First, sorry if i came off as snappy in previous post, i really didn't mean it. I appreciate the help 100%. Feel free to question my knowledge or anything i've if it helps me figure this out.

Now i'll answer the questions.

Gene,
the tank was a used tank. The previous owner assured me he used no chemicals in the tank. But he could of always been lying just to get rid of it. so that is a possibility.

Scott,
The tank is a used tank so i am not sure of the age.
I do not have any live rock in the tank. all i had was 2 heaters, sand and 2 air stones. For water i used distilled water. Turned it into salt and then let it sit for a week. Took PH, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia tests and they all turned up at 0. So i felt it was ok to add a few starter fish(maybe i'm wrong)


On a side note...if it is a case of copper poisoning is there any way to remove it from the tank or is the tank a lost cause.

[newellio]

Just a note of closure on this problem. I'd like to thank the people that responded. It made me think about what i did and i found the problem.

Turns out that moron boy(ME) used copper fittings to hook the hoses of my filters together. So even when i used the chemi-pure to remove the copper it was fighting a losing battle. But atleast my problem is solved and i should be back in business again. Since the filters are out of sight its not something that i even thought of.

Scott, Gene feel free to leave long messages about how much of a moron i am. And once again sorry if i came across as snappy.

Thanks Again,

Tony

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by newellio

Scott, Gene feel free to leave long messages about how much of a moron i am. And once again sorry if i came across as snappy.

Hi Tony,

First off,we're not here to gloat or tell anybody that they're are morons

Secondly, everyone makes mistakes and this is how this hobby progressed to what it is,people making mistakes and discoveries and sharing them.

I'm glad you were able to pinpoint your problem,hopefully it is the culprit. If I may,one word of advice, try to add livestock slowly.I mean one fish a month or so,you'll be happier for it.And another,what is it with the airstone? I didn't get this part somehow.What is your filtration cosists of if i may ask.

Anyhow,good luck to you and hopefully the dark days are over

[newellio]

i plan on building a better filtration system, but currently i have 3 magnum 350 filters. the air stones are just something to provide bubbles(oxygen) in the tank. Not sure i need them, but i think they look cool.

I realize most posts are information and are meant to help out people. I just thought it would be funny if the next post i got said nothing but moron repeated a bunch of times..

I'm cataloging everything i've done and maybe someday if i have time i'll put a step by step of my tank on my website detailing my successes and screw-ups, it may actually help someone...

Anyway i'm off to la la land now...

Wish me luck,

Tony

[the_blue_tuna]

Tony,
I believe that you may not have found your problem ( copper fittings) Unless copper is in an extremly high dose it will not kill the fish that rapidly (inverts are another story though) As I understand it , copper does slowly deteriorate the internal organs though so ultimately death will happen , but small doses of copper , for a limited amount of time , are actually used to rid fish of parasites. I think your your problem lies in your interpretation of cycling the tank. When cycling , you dont just put in water and salt , then let it sit for a while . You must introduce some form of organic material into the water to get the cycle going. Some people cycle with live rock , some use dead shrimp pieces , some will use a single damsel , and one person even considered peeing in the tank to start the cycle. Using fish to start the cycle is not your best option , in my opinion , as it is very hard on the fish . Using live rock is the method of choice for many people now. It takes a while longer , but is a more humane way to go. You can do a search here and find tons of material on cycling a new tank. Try not to get to discouraged and go slowly when setting up a new tank . Good luck and I hope this helped.

[newellio]

Your prolly right that the tank is not being cycled the way it should be. I'm just doing what has worked for me in the past, mainly because i don't know any better and because this is what i was told to do by other people.

It prolly is a combo problem between cycling and copper. The was actually i very high copper content in the water. I work for a company that builds chemical analysis equipment so i decided to run it through some of our tests. Prolly would of been a smart idea to do that in the first place.

so i do not kill the 4 clowns that i have left i might do some reading and try cycling it a different way.


Tony