[Mezmo]

Being a newbie saltwater owner the wife and I have already made a few mistakes (such as adding a lion and puffer in a 2 week old tank) and are hopefully learning to avoid some going forward.

Currently we are going FO lest we kill everything. My wife is really showing alot of interest in our new hobby and has put together a list of dream fish she would like in our 55G tank.

The tank is decorated with a huge 2 piece shipwreck with all sorts of holes and hiding places to dart in and out of in addition to 3 large pieces of dead (white) coral. The shipwreck is beautiful but it has all these fake plants attached to it. It reminds me of something that would go in a fresh water tank. Any thoughts on if I should rip the plants off or not?

Anyway besides the shipwreck this is a list of fish my wife would like to get. The tank is only a 55g but if all goes well we would likely upgrade to a 125g in about a year.

1. Porcupine Puffer (1)
2. Radiata Lionfish (1)
3. Imperator Angel (1)
4. Red Sea Golden Butterfly (1)
5. Marine Betta Grouper (1)
6. Purple Tang (1)
7. Snowflake Eel (1)

This sound ok?

[Ninong]

I hate to rain on your parade but every single one of the fish on your list is inappropriate for a 55-gal tank.Check out your prospective fish using these two sources:

www.wetwebmedia.com and http://www.fishbase.org/search.cfm

What about the 8 damsels that are already in the tank with the puffer and the lion?

[Calfire]

first off welcome reefland. you have made a good choice by joining.



1. Diodon holocanthus (the porcupine puffer) grows to a max size of 11+ inches and needs a minimun aquarium size of 75 gal.

2. Pterois radiata (Radiata lionfish) grows to 9+ inches and needs a minimun tank size of 30 gal.

3.Pomacanthus imperator (emperor anglefish) grows to a max size of 15 inches and needs a minimun tank size of 135 gal.

4. Chaetodon semilarvatus (golden butterflyfish) grows to over 9 inches and needs a minimun tank size of 100 gal.

5. Calloplesiops altivelis (marine batta) not a groupper but a comet which grows up to 8 inches and needs a minimun tanks size of 55 gal.

6. Zebrasoma xanthurum (purple tang) grows to 9+ inches and nees a minimun tank size of 100 gal.

7. Echidna nebulosa (snowflake moray) can grow to a max length of over 29 inches and needs a minimun tank size of 30 gal.

ok all that being said i have listed the recommened tank sizes and if you go to a 180 or larger you should be ok. But that dose not mean that you might over populate your 55 gal if you put all these in now. If fish are feed well and the proper care given they can grow rather fast and start to over power your system. you should not add any thing smaller than you lionfish or your puffer so they don't eat them.
well good luck and i hope this helps some. if you have more questions post then. remember the only stupid question is one that is not asked.


Jason

[Mezmo]

The 8 damsels I placed in the tank simply to help start the cycling process. I never planned on keeping them because of there aggresiveness. The LFS recommended 8 for a 55g. They are too nasty and aggresive and I plan on removing them once the tank finishes cycling. Actually I want to yank em out already but until Im ready for more fish I guess they can stay.

I realize the 55g is too small an environment but I am planning on getting the fish all JUV sizes and then moving to the 125g in about a year. Isn't the 55g sufficient for them while they are still juv's?

My main concern is if the fish, given the appropriate size tank, will get along together?

[zhenya]

1. Diodon holocanthus (the porcupine puffer) grows to a max size of 11+ inches and needs a minimun aquarium size of 75 gal.

Jason,
I think none one of those recommended sizes is appropriate and IMO accurate.
Any fish reaching size of 11+ inches or even 9 inches should not be housed in a tank less then 375-500 gallon tank.Especially eel that reaches 29" How could someone suggest a 30g tank for any of this fish that was listed, or 75g tank for that matter or even 100g?
Porcupine puffer when reaches maturity will be very agressive and will roam your tank in search of food all the time.Eleven plus inches in length is a LARGE fish and I think even 180g would not be enough if you add all the other fish on that list.

Mezmo,
I realize all about the dreams...however, one needs to be practical about this and try to avoid potential disasters resulting from overstocking.
I have to compliment you on trying to research before buying and hope that you take suggestions and advices given here as an attempt to help and prevent you from being disapointed in the hobby.

Good luck!

[Calfire]

Gene

Yes i know about the sizes and tank size but i was just going with a common refrence book and what it said. i was just trying to help and i also think a larger tank is need as the fish and the bioload grow. it was jmo and maybe i should have kept it to myself.

also those are minimun size tanks

Jason

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Calfire

Gene

Yes i know about the sizes and tank size but i was just going with a common refrence book and what it said. i was just trying to help and i also think a larger tank is need as the fish and the bioload grow. it was jmo and maybe i should have kept it to myself.

also those are minimun size tanks

Jason

Jason,

I think you misread my post. It was not targeted on your responce and I think you did great job in research, I was just trying to make a point that some of the information in the hobby is not always correct or could be old. I understood about the minimum size tanks,FWIW. For some reason the minimum size tank does not correspond with the size of fish in adulthood and this makes me question how valuable the information actually is but I'm in no way questioning your intentions. I hope we are clear on this and I hope that you'll continue to participate in discussions. I had recieved an email today where certain well known author in this hobby was described giving advice on keeping a T.gigas species in a 29g aquarium,in a very popular fish magazine to boot I leave this author nameless but I'm sure you'll come accross this sooner or later

[Ninong]

Mezmo,

It is unfortunate that LFS personnel continue to tell customers they should purchase damselfish to cycle their new tanks. This is absolutely untrue and is abusive to the damselfish. Even if there is no live rock in the tank, it can be cycled easily using raw shrimp from the supermarket. Assuming that you purchased the Pterois radiata and the Diodon holocanthus from that same store that sold you the eight damselfish they would be aware of the size of your aquarium and the fact that it was only one week old. Just more proof that they have no regard for the well being of their fish or whether they are providing their customers with accurate advice.

The Pomacanthus imperator is a very aggressive large angelfish. Like many fish it's juvenile diet is not the same as its adult diet. As a juvenile it is primarily herbivorous but as it matures its natural diet changes to principally sponges, tunicates and coral polyps in addition to algae. It is sometimes possible to succeed with this species if one has a very large aquarium and if the specimen is a juvenile to begin with because they are easier to adapt to a nutritionally diverse substitute menu. This fish is considered one of the more aggressive angelfish and one of the more difficult to maintain in captivity.

Chaetodon semilarvatus is not an easy fish to keep in captivity. Being from the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden it does not do well in tanks kept below 1.026 specific gravity. The biggest problem with keeping this species successfully in captivity is in getting it to adapt to substitute foods. It's natural diet consists of leather coral polyps and scleractinian polyps.

That should give you a head start on your research. Just remember that the advice on minimum tank sizes for various species of fish that you see in various sources is intended a minimum size assuming very little additional bioload.

[Mezmo]

Thank you very much for the information regarding the Imerator and the Red Sea Butterfly I often hear and read different things regarding the Imerator. For instance Marine Depot live says the Imerator Angel is:

Generally peaceful towards other tank mates, but may act aggressively towards other Angels. The Pomacanthus imperator is a medium maintenance fish.The Imperator Angel prefers a tank of at least 75 gallons with plenty of places to hide & swim.


I thought that I would be ok with a 55g early on and then switch to a 125g-150g later on as the fish grow. The 55g has a wet/dry/powerhead thats rated for a 150g setup so I am assuming the extra waterflow and larger biofilter would be beneficial in keeping more fish in a smaller tank.

I am also planning on purchasing a Denitrator to help reduce my nitrate/nitrite levels. From what I understand they can drastically reduce the frequency of water changes. I am worried a little there because my wife and I are very busy sometimes and our friday night "fish date" sometimes gets lost in the wind. If I can get a Denitrator that has the same effect as doing a 50g water change weekly the better for both the Fish and I. This is the product I've been leaning towards. http://www.aquaripure.com I'm not trying to get out of doing water changes it's just more or less a safety procaution.

The LFS that sold me the damsels would have never have let my wife purchase a Radiata and Puffer knowing the tank was only 2 weeks old. She purchased them elsewhere. She panicked because she thought someone was going to buy her pretty puffer before the tank was ready. The Radiata was her way of bribing me so that I wouldnt be mad because she knew I wanted the Lionfish. She really didnt understand how important the Nitrogen Cycle was.

The Damsels have to go. They will no doubt make the other fish too nervous and aggitated with their constant chasing each other around. I had hoped the lion would quickly grow and perhaps eat them but I dont think he will be able to eat them for some time. Hopefully, the LFS will take them back as I will gladly give them back for free.

Given the list of fish I stated earlier is there a particular order in which I should introduce them to the tank?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Mezmo

Thank you very much for the information regarding the Imerator and the Red Sea Butterfly I often hear and read different things regarding the Imerator. For instance Marine Depot live says the Imerator Angel is:

Generally peaceful towards other tank mates, but may act aggressively towards other Angels. The Pomacanthus imperator is a medium maintenance fish.The Imperator Angel prefers a tank of at least 75 gallons with plenty of places to hide & swim.

I don't agree with their advice that a 75-gal tank is adequate for an adult Imperator Angelfish. My impression is that online vendors have a tendency to underestimate the minimum tank size requirements and underestimate the potential problems one might have if one were interested in purchasing whatever it is they are describing in the most favorable terms possible. It is not their intention to talk you out of making a purchase.

I think you can find better, less biased advice from sources that are not trying to sell you the animal they are providing advice on. FishBase is a scientific database and WetWebMedia is Robert Fenner's website. Both are very valuable sources of good information.

Here is what Dr. Dieter Brockmann has to say about this species: ...the Emperor Angelfish, Pomacanthus imperator, which grows to a length of up to 40 cm. It is distributed from the Red Sea to the Hawaiian Islands and the Tuamotu Archipelago (west-east distribution), as well as from Japan in the north to New Caledonia in the south. Just like many other angelfishes living on coral reefs, P. imperator feeds principally on sponges, tunicates and cnidarian, as well as on algae. In a marine aquarium, juvenile Emperor Angelfishes, which differ from adults by their distinctly different colouration, can easily be adapted to substitute foods. This characteristic, together with their beauty and hardiness, have made them - to this day - one of the most desirable angelfishes. However, if kept together with other fishes, its aggressiveness, which makes it quickly the dominating (= alpha) fish in a community marine fish tank, must be taken into account. This can cause problems in small tanks. It is not too uncommon, for a fish similar in shape and colour to emperor angelfish, to become the victim of its aggression. Subsequently introduced fishes are always chased and driven away from food. Consequently, it requires constant alertness on the part of the hobbyist to be able to quickly intervene should this become necessary and so avoid any losses. In very large aquariums, on the other hand, there are no compatibility problems with other fishes.

Dr. Brockmann has more than thirty years experience keeping marine aquaria and reef aquaria. He has done extensive research on Indo-Pacific and Caribbean reefs. He is the marine section editor of the German monthly magazine, das Aquarium, and a member of the International Society for Reef Studies.

P.S. -- My definition of "very large aquariums" would start at 300-gallons.

[RayPollett]

[quote=Mezmo]Thank you very much for the information regarding the Imerator and the Red Sea Butterfly I often hear and read different things regarding the Imerator. For instance Marine Depot live says the Imerator Angel is:

Generally peaceful towards other tank mates, but may act aggressively towards other Angels. The Pomacanthus imperator is a medium maintenance fish.The Imperator Angel prefers a tank of at least 75 gallons with plenty of places to hide & swim.


I thought that I would be ok with a 55g early on and then switch to a 125g-150g later on as the fish grow. The 55g has a wet/dry/powerhead thats rated for a 150g setup so I am assuming the extra waterflow and larger biofilter would be beneficial in keeping more fish in a smaller tank.
---

Unfortunately, it does not work that way. It is not just the bio-load, but also the territorial demands a fish makes. This fish is unsuited for any tank smaller than a 135 gallon IMO.


I am also planning on purchasing a Denitrator to help reduce my nitrate/nitrite levels. From what I understand they can drastically reduce the frequency of water changes. I am worried a little there because my wife and I are very busy sometimes and our friday night "fish date" sometimes gets lost in the wind. If I can get a Denitrator that has the same effect as doing a 50g water change weekly the better for both the Fish and I. This is the product I've been leaning towards. http://www.aquaripure.com I'm not trying to get out of doing water changes it's just more or less a safety procaution.
----

Not really. Water changes do more than lower nitrates. They replenish trace elements the animals in the tank use and need.


The LFS that sold me the damsels would have never have let my wife purchase a Radiata and Puffer knowing the tank was only 2 weeks old. She purchased them elsewhere. She panicked because she thought someone was going to buy her pretty puffer before the tank was ready. The Radiata was her way of bribing me so that I wouldnt be mad because she knew I wanted the Lionfish. She really didnt understand how important the Nitrogen Cycle was.

The Damsels have to go. They will no doubt make the other fish too nervous and aggitated with their constant chasing each other around. I had hoped the lion would quickly grow and perhaps eat them but I dont think he will be able to eat them for some time. Hopefully, the LFS will take them back as I will gladly give them back for free.

Given the list of fish I stated earlier is there a particular order in which I should introduce them to the tank?
[font=Arial] ---

No you should not introduce those fish into a 55 gallon tank. It is cruel. Their is no way to put those fish in and give them proper water and territory.

Ray

[Mezmo]

No you should not introduce those fish into a 55 gallon tank. It is cruel. Their is no way to put those fish in and give them proper water and territory.

Cruelty is actually seeing them in a barren 15-20g tank in the LFS. I understand we all want to give the fish the homes they deserve but that would require that I live in the ocean. Sure I want the fish to be happy but at some point I have to please my family and myself also. Not everyone has the room and budget to set up a 300g fishtank. I have seen plenty of fish in tanks I would consider too small with no ill effects for there entire lives.

All too often I see fish in the LFS that stay there in a small 20g tank almost forever because they are either too expensive or the customer does not have the oceanic size tank everyone says the species calls for. Would it not be better for an Imperator Juv to start his life in a brand new 55g tank with plenty of aqua-scaping and shipwrecks to play in? Then as they grow older I can have the pleasure of transplanting them into a bigger tank like a 125-150g in about a year.

I am not advocating putting a 15 inch fish in a 20 inch bowl. I am merely wondering why 5 - 6 three inch juvenile fish wouldnt be ok starting the first portion of their lives in a well equipped 55g tank?


Still this isn't really what I was asking for though I do highly appreciate all the knowledge you guys are sharing with this newbie. I was looking for information more along the lines of "Add fish(a) then fish (b) then (c) dont add (d) cause fish (a) will eat him.....etc"

Its much easier to convince my wife to get a 55g setup and going then it would be for me to convince her that we need the 220g as our first fishtank.
I am trying to purchase the fish that I want so I can keep them for years (hopefully in a 125-150g) beyond their intial 55g home.

[RayPollett]

Mezmo,

You do what you want, You are going to anyway. You've been told not to put those fish in a 55. You've been giving the reasons why it will not work and that it is cruel. I wash my hands of you.

Ray

[salttanker]

If I were you, I would wait and get a 135G or a 180G so you only have to do it once. I know it is more expensive, but you will pay for it later when you get it, in addition to the 55G you would already have spent the money on. Do some pricing on them before you get the 55G. Some of these fish demand larger tanks to meet their needs. I purchased a 90G, and now I wish I would have sprung for the 180G. Live and learn as they say..


Mike

[Mezmo]

Man you guys are a rough crowd....

[salttanker]

I believe everyone here just has concerns for the fish, and they are just trying to assist you so your tank doesn't fail and your fish don't die. I've been doing this for a while, and it is a constant learning process for me. This board has some great insight on just about any kind of information you're looking for with regards to setting up, and maintaining a tank.
Everyone does have their own opinions on some things, but there truly is a capacity requirement for certain types of fish, even though the LFS may not tell you..

Thanks,

Mike

[Mezmo]

The 55g was a sort of gift. It came completely setup. I just needed to add water and fish. Naturally, I want a bigger tank but this is what I currently have. I already have a lionfish and a puffer prematurely (wifey purchased to soon) and had merely hoped I could raise the fish that I wanted for a larger tank in the 55g while they are juv's. That's all I meant. Clearly, it's obvious that adding all the fish on my fishlist to a 55g is unwise. I take it then that having only 2 fish, a Puffer and Radiata lion, in a 55g is also no good?

[salttanker]

They will out grow the 55G pretty quick. For now, I wouldn't add any more fish in there since the 2 of them are already in there. Like I said before, I have a 90G, and now I wish I would have bought the 180G. If I did, I would have been much less limited in the fish selection that I like. Good luck to you with these guys, and start saving for a larger tank for later..it will be worth it.


Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Mezmo

Cruelty is actually seeing them in a barren 15-20g tank in the LFS.

This is a moral dilemma. The problem is that the retail vendors will import anything and everything as long as they can make a profit from it. Even if that means depleting limited stocks from the wild of a species that is unsuitable for home aquaria. A good example of this is the way some areas have been depleted of host sea anemones even though the species in question has a terrible survival rate in captivity. Removing the host anemones results in a reduction or even elimination of the endemic clownfish species because the juveniles can't find an anemone to call home. Similarly, removal of the clownfish can result in the almost immediate elimination of the host anemones due to butterflyfish predation. Studies have shown that Entacmaea quadricolor (bubble tip anemones) populations have been devastated by butterflyfishes within 48 hours of the removal of their clownfish protectors.

The point of this example is to point out that whenever we feel sorry for something at the LFS and say that we are buying it to "save" it, we are actually dooming ten more to the same fate. Whatever sells will be replaced, with all that that means as far as collection and handling mortalities. This may or may not apply to any of your particular purchases but it raises the moral dilemma that each and every one of us faces every time we see something at the LFS that is in need of saving.

I have seen plenty of fish in tanks I would consider too small with no ill effects for there entire lives.

Did they live a natural lifespan? Did they reach their normal adult size? Are we talking about 15-20 years or 2-3 years? Some gobies have a natural lifespan of less than 2 years but clownfish have a natural lifespan of about 20 years, same for angelfish and many other species. Groupers can live 50 years. Clownfish-hosting anemones can live 200 years.

I am not advocating putting a 15 inch fish in a 20 inch bowl. I am merely wondering why 5 - 6 three inch juvenile fish wouldnt be ok starting the first portion of their lives in a well equipped 55g tank?

Still this isn't really what I was asking for though I do highly appreciate all the knowledge you guys are sharing with this newbie. I was looking for information more along the lines of "Add fish(a) then fish (b) then (c) dont add (d) cause fish (a) will eat him.....etc"

All of these questions are answered on the site that I gave you a link for: www.wetwebmedia.com It's not all that difficult to find this information online.

Here are a few selected quotes from WetWebMedia for the benefit of any other beginners who may be reading this thread and wonder why people seem so negative in their comments.

Here is a question from someone who has a Diodon holocanthus (Porcupine Puffer):

Q: My wife has requested a Dwarf lion and moray...Im thinking possibly a chain link moray.

A: Dwarf Lion is out. They are small, slow moving and with venomous long spins will be a temptation to nip by the puffer. Also, with two large fish like a moray and puffer you will most likely never see the lion out of it's cave during the day.

I hope Bob Fenner doesn't get mad at me for lifting quotes from his site but it's good advertising as long as we give him credit: www.wetwebmedia.com

In case you're wondering, the guy with the porcupine puffer whose wife also likes lions and moray eels is talking about his 240-gal tank, not a 55-gal tank.

Here is a question from someone wondering how many fish he can keep in his 180-gal tank. The answer might help you in figuring out how many you should try in your 55-gal tank, assuming they are all very small and you upgrade to a larger tank in the near future.

Q: This same guy has a tank full of fish in his 180g that would make any fish hobbyist drool with envy, over 15 fish, 6 angels(5" emperor, 4" majestic, 4" Blueface, 3" grey Poma, 3" flagfin, and a 2.5" juv Koran), 2 pygmy
angels, 6 b/f's, a FoxFace, and some other assorted small fish, all for over a year now.

A: Perhaps dwarfing them in the process... this is too much for the longer haul.

Q: The pics he has sent me are unreal and can not believe that there is no problems or disease. I could understand 2, maybe 3 angels in a large tank, but not 5 or 6 along with at least 9 other fish.

A: In behavioral sciences sometimes referred to as "The Locker Room Effect"... and done "all the time" with some of the more aggressive African and Neotropical Cichlids... i.e. crowding to the point of apparent non-aggression...

Q: He says that the fish are happy, healthy, and get along fine. He knows that in a few years he might have to upgrade to a much larger tank (220+) if he wants to keep all these fish as full grown adults.

A: Agreed.

Information on the Snowflake eel:

The Snowflake, Starry, or Diamond-Backed Moray, Echidna nebulosa (Ahl 1789) is a fabulous aquarium species; small, compatible with other fish species and adaptable to captivity. It is certainly the most peaceful, outgoing and desirable moray species. To about thirty inches total length. Base color of silver gray with black and yellow "snowflakes" randomly sprinkled over the lower body.

Irrespective of purchase size, this and all Morays' tanks should be as large as possible (a minimum of sixty gallons, even for small specimens) and supplied with plenty of "stable" cover.

The "stable" cover reference is to remind you of the need for hiding (dark) spaces AND the fact that such arranged decor needs to be "settled" in. That is, not subject to falling onto your aquatic charges. Either "wiggle" heavy rock, decor items till they're settling on "the bottom" (the tank base, filter panel, plenum screen...) or set it on their first, ahead of placing your substrate/s. Do this same sort of "wiggling" of subsequent materials stacked on top of this base to assure their sturdiness.

Moray eels are aquatic Houdini's, seemingly able to get out of any/all containers. What is the price of freedom? Constant vigilance. Know that even after your eel has settled in, it can, will be exploring the surface of its system most nights, possibly leaving... I have seen footage of this species going "intertidal" at night, in search of tasty crustaceans...

Should you discover your moray out on the floor moving, pick it up with a damp towel, rinse it off (yes in the sink with tapwater) and return it to a marine system. Even if the animal is apparently dry, stiff, don't necessarily give up. Do rinse it, and return anyway... and observe to see if it revives in an hour or so. Have witnessed this sort of "resurrection" on several occasions.

Info on Zebrasoma xanthurum (Purple Tang):

The Yellowtail or Purple (though more blue than violet) Sailfin Tang. Collected from the Indian Ocean and Red Sea, this is a supreme aquarium fish.

Though Zebrasoma are somewhat smaller and less free-ranging than other Acanthurid species, these tangs require large amounts of tank space to be at their best. A fifty-gallon tank is the absolute smallest I'd keep one in.

Of all the tangs, the Zebrasoma species display the most tolerance for variable water conditions. Nevertheless pH should be maintained between 8.0 and 8.4., temperature kept ideally in the mid-seventies; to low eighties F. maximum.

For cost, disease and maintenance considerations, many folks keep these fishes at low specific gravities (1.020 and even lower). This generally works out, except for the Z. xanthurum collected out of the Red Sea appreciate a higher, more constant (1.025-27) spg.

These fishes, as all tangs, are best placed near last to ensure aging and stability of the system. Given plenty of room and hiding spaces your Sailfin tang should not be overly intimidated by any but the worst bully tank-mates.

Additional info on large angelfish:

With such socially aggressive and interactive species as angels are with their tankmates; having as large a system as possible with as much cover/decor as practical can't be emphasized enough. The larger species need big volumes just for themselves; but all angels will beat the dickens out of other livestock if too cramped or not provided with plenty of cover.

Angelfishes, especially the larger species should only be put into a seasoned, previously stocked system. The reasons for this are two-fold. One, they prefer those water conditions, and secondly, to preclude the angel developing a this-whole-tank-is-mine attitude.

Most species will fight with members of their own species, likely with other's of the same genus, and quite possibly with other similar-appearing fishes of about the same size. The only safe approach to mixing them is to provide plenty of space, cover, and observe them carefully.
In almost all cases it is best to have one member of an angelfish genus per system; ideally only one angel period.

As regards other-than-angel species, most disputes are nominal, as long as the angel(s) are left ultimately "in charge".


That information should prove helpful to you in your decision process.

[Blobby Goat]

or will they fight? i am new and wanna get a Puffer i have a eel but i am not sure what kind it is also i have glass fish.