Copper Treatment Question

[Airmotive]

Okay, so I have my fish currently in a 29g hospital tank following an ich outbreak in the main tank. I've been maintaining Cu at 30ppm and all the fish have cleared up....all except for one. That one, the eight line wrasse that brought the ich into the tank in the first place, continues to develop new white spots. Not a lot, mind you....he currently has two. Yesterday he had only one.

The copper treatment has otherwise been quite successful. A badly infected coral beauty and percula clown show no signs of parasites. How are these tomites surviving to infect the wrasse? Should I be considering raising the Cu concentration? Perhaps a freshwater dip? I am really quite puzzled that new "grains of salt" would show up after establishing copper in the tank. Lord knows the copper has killed all trace of nitrifying bacteria in the tank. 25% daily water changes are the only thing keeping ammonia under control; while nitrites remain at zero.

Anyone been down this path before?

Blue Skies
JJ

[Reefland]

How long have the fish been in the Q Tank with the Cu treatment?

My thought would be that the other fish are less stressed than the new Wrasse whom brought the parasite on board, thus allowing them to more easily fight the parasite off. Just a thought.

Scott Z.

[Airmotive]

We're in day 6 of the treatment.

My confusion stems from my understanding that the free swimming tomites could not survive in the copper treated water. And it's these tomites that cause new infections.

I realize it takes a couple weekes of treatment in copper to completely irradicate the parasite, I was just suprised to see new spots on any fish.

Blues Skies
JJ

How long have the fish been in the Q Tank with the Cu treatment?

My thought would be that the other fish are less stressed than the new Wrasse whom brought the parasite on board, thus allowing them to more easily fight the parasite off. Just a thought.

Scott Z.

[Powder Blue]

Is 30ppm a general good dosage to use? I have a horrible outbreak and need to medicate. My fish are not fighting it off and are becoming more infected with every cycle in the main. I may need to catch all of them and transfer them to the QT.

[Samper]

This is my understanding of the ich situation........First Ich is natural it happens in the ocean as you know however the ocean is big enough to fight off nasties like this. If you can get your problem under control enough to where you only see a spot every now and then and you have a good enough UV on your tank then you should be ok. With a good UV my understanding is that the fish will still get the "salt grains" however will sluff them off before any harm is done. Hope I helped let me know how it goes cause I might need to know sometime.

[Powder Blue]

This is my understanding of the ich situation........First Ich is natural it happens in the ocean as you know however the ocean is big enough to fight off nasties like this. If you can get your problem under control enough to where you only see a spot every now and then and you have a good enough UV on your tank then you should be ok. With a good UV my understanding is that the fish will still get the "salt grains" however will sluff them off before any harm is done. Hope I helped let me know how it goes cause I might need to know sometime.

This parasite is a huge problem. I never had it when I started my new main. I added my new Regal Tang (Spot magnet) and my Yellow Tang and all was 100% for a month. Then a sea water change came along and a few bugs slipped into my tank.

I phoned the LFS, spoke to mates and stressed. The LFS said wait a few days, the fish may fight the parasite off which I did and they got worse. Then I had to catch them and medicate them in the QT tank before loosing them. This is not a fun job for me all my fish as I have to move the rocks and disturb the tank. If not, it is impossible to catch them as they hide.

Once in the QT tank, they improve rapidly but to the expense of lots of stress and suffering. I have them back in the main as from yest evening and I will see what happens. I wish, which I am sure we all do, to enjoy my tank and fish without the headaces. A freind who has been through this a number of times has almost decided to give it all up. This guy cleared his main a few times for 2 weeks at a time only to have the spots return after returning them to his main. Another freind did give it all up. I sometimes wonder if I should just do corals only with no fish!! It is heart sore to loose hundreds of Rands of fish and watch them stress while trying to enjoy a facinating hobby.

I guess that is one aspect that we all have to deal with as part of the deal. Could someone not design a medication that kills these bugs in a reef tank without having to move them around?

Regards
Sam

[Airmotive]

Five weeks in the QT. Minimum...or you will get a recurrence of the parasite. www.wetwebmedia.com has extensive articles on treatment. Just do a search for marine ich and spend the next couple of days reading.

Me, I'm in week three of QT. I've just recently pulled the copper from my Q-tank and the ammonia is finally starting to drop without my daily water changes. All the fish are parasite free, the display tank looks healthy; the temptation to put the fish back into the display tank is HUGE! (Especially since adding a new rose BTA...want to see if the pair of clowns will adopt it).

The two week treatments your friend was using treats only the fish...not the display tank. Gotta kill the critters that are causing the problem...or they'll just cause more problems.

Blue Skies!
JJ

[Powder Blue]

I treated my Regal,Yellow Tangs and Morish in the QT tank for a week. The Regal cleared up great and others as well. Two days after putting them back in the Main, my Regal is covered in spots again. The Yellow Tang and Morish are clear. I am very dissapointed as I will prob have to put my Regal through the same stress again, maybe the others.

Seems the Regal is more suseptable to the infection because of his thin skin/scales. I am not going to loose faith just yet. Perhaps a week is not long enough? I did a week in the QT cause at 32c temp I thought the cycle would be long over. Would you suggest I clear the main completely of all fish. I did leave a little Damsel in as well as my juvenile Clowns who don't seem to get infected. I will have look at your link, thanks.

Regards
Sam

[Reefland]

Yes you should empty the main tank for 4-6 weeks to allow for the parasite to completely exit the system. While the fish are in quarantine, make sure they are treated as well to ensure you do not re-introduce it back into your tank after the 4-6 week term.

Scott Z.

[Powder Blue]

I have just read your link and I must confess I have done the treatment wrong. Not enough time in the QT tank and the main must be cleared and left to stand for quite a while.

The info is well written and makes sense. The problem with this parastite is once in the main it takes a lot of time and patience to rid it as well as a lot precaution to keep it out it seems. The LFS don't take the time to explain this to new hobiests. Business as usual I guess. They also make money on replacing the fish and selling the various treatments.

Regards and thank you
Sam

[Reefland]

You got it! Do not take the advice from any LFS until you have had time to research their suggestions and verify them; lesson #1 in the world of saltwater aquariums.

Scott Z.

[Powder Blue]

Thanks,

I will bite the bullet, get another bottle of Cuprazin and retreat. My QT is a little small for 2 tangs and a Morish but I could get some help from fellow hobbiests. I guess moving the fish and perhaps stressing them is better than loosing them. I have also been learning huge amounts which I will share with my mates and help to make this hobby as user freindly as possible. The LFS said that there are those who have had white spot and those who have not had it yet. How true is that.

Sam

[Powder Blue]

You got it! Do not take the advice from any LFS until you have had time to research their suggestions and verify them; lesson #1 in the world of saltwater aquariums.

Scott Z.

I read an article on our local forum about White Spot and they recon it is a parasite that may lay "dormant" in the tank untill a stressed fish is added. They then appear and devistate the tank. Considering the life cycle of the animal, would you not agree with me and say that is nonsense? I thought it was a bit of a scary note to post for any new commers.

Sam

[Reefland]

No that is not nonsense, that is in fact the truth. Adding a new fish to a tank who is stressed from import and transit has a slightly weaker immune system and cannot fight the parasite off which is why new additions will be the more common fish to get the parasite. If however the tank is void of the parasite, everything is ok but if it isn't and it is just dormant, the new fish will likely pick it up.

Scott Z.

[Powder Blue]

No that is not nonsense, that is in fact the truth. Adding a new fish to a tank who is stressed from import and transit has a slightly weaker immune system and cannot fight the parasite off which is why new additions will be the more common fish to get the parasite. If however the tank is void of the parasite, everything is ok but if it isn't and it is just dormant, the new fish will likely pick it up.

Scott Z.

Interesting, have you any idea how long the parasite may remain dormant before it perishes? Your reply explains why the LFS said I must wait and see if my fish will fight off the parasite on their own.

Could I not add an imunity booster or tonic to help the fish fight it off?

Sam

[Airmotive]

The "dormant" stage of the parasite usually lasts 48-72 hours, BUT (and this is a very large BUT ) it can last as long as 4 weeks!!

I was reading a PhD thesis on the lifecycle of C. irritans (ich), and she had made a really nice chart that depicts the population of tomants (dormant ich "eggs") and tomites (swimming, fish-hunting ich parasites) over time. It was quite interesting how 90% of the tomants hatched within 72 hours; but that last 10% lasted over a month. It's that last 10% that makes treating the main tank so damn time consuming. If only one tomant is still present when you go and put your fish back into the tank, that tomant can release up to 200 tomites and......you're back to square one. She did find the lifecycle to be temperature dependant...the warmer the tank, the faster (shorter) the lifecycle. However, cooking your corals is not an option either...I went with 82F.

The easiest way to explain treating for ich is to put it in terms that people can see. So, ich is very much like the common flea. If you dog gets fleas, and brings those fleas into your house...now your house has fleas. No matter how many flea baths you give your dog, it's not going to get rid of the fleas in your house. Likewise, no matter how many times you fumagate your house, you're just going to get more fleas if you don't get them off your dog too. And even after you kill all the fleas on the dog and in the house...you still have flea eggs that are waiting to hatch...and the only way to kill them is after they hatch. Ich is the exact same way...you can't kill the eggs so you're left waiting for ALL the eggs to hatch in order to kill the parasite.

Blue Skies
JJ

Interesting, have you any idea how long the parasite may remain dormant before it perishes? Your reply explains why the LFS said I must wait and see if my fish will fight off the parasite on their own.

Could I not add an imunity booster or tonic to help the fish fight it off?

Sam

[Powder Blue]

Good way of putting it!! My mate is itching to get fish into his new tank and runs he risk of this problem as the water is new sea water and has a 99% chance of some floating tomites in it. Should perhaps wait for a month. Sea water setups don't seem to have big ammonia spikes as compared to synthetic.

I was wondering if someone ever did a thesis. My LFS said turn the temp up and turn the lights off. An article I read from the Institute of some fish foundation there in the States said that temperature radically increases the time span of the cycle and generally the free floating tomites can not survive in an enviroment over 33c but have have been known to do devestating damage to hatcheries at 34c.

As for my LFS, all that may happen by turning the temp up is the fish will become infected 3 times quicker and the bugs will breed 3 times quicker. I wonder if any person has had success "cooking" their corals and fish to rid White Spot. I doubt it. I may have to spread my fish around a bit with friends as my 3ft QT is to small for 2 Tangs, a Moorish Idol and 2 Clowns. That enviroment will prob do more damage than the White Spot. Then the fish do however, sometimes stay in the smaller FS display tanks for ages waiting to be sold and they adapt in the short term or so it seems.

Do you do synthetic water changes or sea water? Synthetic with RO would certianly prevent any white spot ever finding it's way back into the main tank. Can be expensive though. We are on the coast so it's easy and free to pick up a few drums of clean water anytime.(Excl bugs of course)

Regards
Sam

[Ninong]

Let me throw out a few points for this discussion:

1. The large single cell cyst is called a "tomont." It takes anywhere from 3 - 28 days for it to divide into tomites and this process is temperature dependent -- higher temperatures speed up the process because they speed up all stages of the parasite's life cycle.

2. The free-swimming stage is called a "theront." Once the tomont divides into tomites, the individual tomites produce cilia and become theronts.

3. A copper concentration of 30 ppm would kill everything in your tank in no time at all. There would be no fish or anything else alive in the tank within a matter of minutes. Perhaps you meant to say 0.3 ppm copper but even that is on the high side for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans. The usual recommendation is 0.2 ppm.

4. There is no evidence to support the hypothesis that tomonts can remain viable indefinitely in an aquarium. When aquarists report that they experienced a new infestation of C. irritans several months after what they thought was the successful eradication of a previous episode, what probably happened is that the parasite's life cycle was continuing all along but at such a low infestation rate that it was not noticed. Then it suddenly became more virulent when stress of some sort weakened one or more of the host fish.

The life cycles of both C. irritans (marine ich) and Ichthyophthirius multifilis (freshwater ich) have been studied extensively for decades in the commercial aquaculture industry and there is nothing at this point that has not been known for decades. There is a lot of confusion in the reefkeeping hobby that can be attributed to anecdotal reports from aquarists reporting what they believed they observed. It may be possible for a small number of tomonts to remain viable longer than 28 days but certainly none of them would be viable several months or years later as some hobbyists believe. They're not lotus seeds.

[Powder Blue]

Ninong,as always,thank you for your input of experience and knowledge of this subject and many others that you have replied to. Appreciated.

I have removed my Regal again and I have placed him in my small QT tank for another treatment. I have decided to leave the other fish in the main and watch them closely. They seem so much stronger and more resistant to the infection. They are not showing any signs of spots at all. I have been dosing the QT with the standard instructions on the bottle for that size tank and I hope the dose is correct. I do not have a copper volume test kit and am battling to get one locally. Catching my fish was not a problem today. He is a very agressive feeder and when I put the food in I scooped him up with the net in a second at the top. This prevented me having to disturb the rocks again.

One problem I noticed was my Regal picked up a secondary infection after being in the QT for about 8 days. His eyes started becomming cloudy. My LFS said I must treat with copper which was not much help as he was in copper already. Within a day of returning him to the main the eyes cleared up but so did the White Spot return. A concern.

I cannot understand how turning the temp up and turning the lights off will rid the parasite? The LFS recommendation. I will treat my Regal for 6 weeks and if the parasite returns I may have to consider giving him away rather than let the fish suffer with this lifestyle.

May I ask one more qustion? Does one overfeed or underfeed to help the fish build an immunity? I read an article on a stunning reef tank in the US where the owner had introduced a Regal in to his 550gal reef tank. He developed itch bad and after OVERFEEDING for a few days the fish came right. My LFS say no. Underfeed!! The owner of this reef tank is J.Rice who has 2 hobbies, light aircraft and marine keeping. His website is awsome and has won some awards. Very pleasent reading and an experienced hobbiest. Some amazing photos.

Kind Regards
Sam

[Ninong]

I have removed my Regal again and I have placed him in my small QT tank for another treatment. I have decided to leave the other fish in the main and watch them closely. They seem so much stronger and more resistant to the infection.

Just keep in mind that the only sure way to eliminate Cryptocaryon irritans from the main tank is to allow it to go for a minimum of 6 weeks (or more) without any fish of any kind. Healthy looking fish could still harbor a few unseen trophonts in their gills.

They are not showing any signs of spots at all.

When your tank has an infestation of C. irritans, some fish will be more obviously affected than others but it is likely that all of them carry at least a few of the trophonts.

I have been dosing the QT with the standard instructions on the bottle for that size tank and I hope the dose is correct.

If you followed the instructions carefully, it is likely that you have a copper concentration of 0.3 ppm because there is no way that they would recommend a concentration of 30 ppm.

I cannot understand how turning the temp up and turning the lights off will rid the parasite? The LFS recommendation.

Turning the temperature up will speed up the metabolism of everything in the tank including the C. irritans parasites. At higher temperatures (27-28C) the parasite's life cycle stages will be much, much shorter and the process of elimination will not take as long. I don't think turning the lights off will have any effect on the parasite itself but it may be restful for the stressed out fish.

May I ask one more qustion? Does one overfeed or underfeed to help the fish build an immunity? I read an article on a stunning reef tank in the US where the owner had introduced a Regal in to his 550gal reef tank. He developed itch bad and after OVERFEEDING for a few days the fish came right. My LFS say no. Underfeed!! The owner of this reef tank is J.Rice who has 2 hobbies, light aircraft and marine keeping. His website is awsome and has won some awards. Very pleasent reading and an experienced hobbiest.

Yes, I'm familiar with his website but he hasn't updated it in years and I guess I lost it. I am not familiar with overfeeding as a recommended therapy for ich but I am familiar with soaking the food in garlic extract (or adding finely minced garlic) as a prophylactic and possible cure. I didn't mention garlic because that is something that is usually used by those who do not wish to remove their fish from the main tank. Formalin and copper are the two treatments usually used by professionals to treat fish in isolation. Copper is always risky because of the various long-term negative consequences of copper treatment -- one of the reasons I avoid buying fish from any LFS that routinely maintains ALL of their fish inventory in copper treated holding tanks. There is one LFS in my area that runs copper all the time as a prophylactic against parasitic infection.

The other commonly used treatment for ich is hyposalinity. Like copper or formalin, this can only be done in a hospital tank. Some fish tolerate hyposalinity better than others.