fish displaying weird erratic rubbing motions

[deuce]

Hi,

I'll try to explain this as best as possible. I have a 55 gal that has been established for about 5 months since it was restarted (velvet or ick took everything out in May). Everything has been great until the past week. Up until then water quality has been good. Amonia, nitrate and nitrite levels were nearly undetectable. About two weeks ago I noticed when I turned on the light in the morning that one of the perculas had been devored and had very little flesh left. I took a look at the feeder and some moisture had made it's way in and hardened the food mix so nothing would drop out. (I use an automatic feeder, spins twice a day and has a mix of stuff to accomodate different diets that I crush up). This is the first time I have seen this happen in the 12 months since I have been using an automatic feeder. I had been busy with school and wasn't paying attention to the feeding cycles for the previous few days, so I suspect that they could have gone as many as 3 or 4 days with out food. I know this is really bad, but this is the first time I have ever broke my schedule and let them go unfed. I'm not sure if this has anyhthing to do with my problem, but I'm including it anyway.

About a week and a half ago I started noticing most of the fish rubbing against things and displaying some erratic motion...I am under the impression that is a sign of parasites? However, there weren't any visable signs...no white spots or anything. (It has been at least a month since a new fish has been introduced--I know there are always parasites present but I'm mentioning this anyway) Well anyway just to be safe I did one treatment with some ick medication, and the next day did another. (I just dropped the drops in the main tank because all the fish were displaying this behavior, and so I couldn't exactly isolate it) A few days later the fish were still displaying the same behavior, so I dropped my salinity over the period of a few hours from my normal 1.021 to 1.017. (I've been told lowering the salinity is more effective than medication for parasite control) Last week I lost a yellow tang, and most of the rest of the fish started to become extremely stressed. I tested the water and was seeing alittle in the amonia and nitrate levels. (nitrites were undetectable) I did a 20% water change and threw in 5 ml of amonia detox. (for the record my last scheduled maintenance and water change was 3 weeks ago) A few days later the amonia and nitrate levels were much better, but the fish were still looking stressed. (the damsels were very dark in color and the fish were all hiding at the bottom along the sand. The yellow tang was developing some light brown blotches) At this point I put in some more amonia detox. Afew days later (tuesday before Thanksgiving) I checked the levels again and there was alittle amonia and nitrates showing, and the fish were still showing the same erratic behavior, and a little stress. I changed about 10% of the water and kept the same salinty. That night I had to head home for the holiday. I was alittle concerned about leaving with the tank in the condition it was in, but I didn't have a choice. (I'm a junior in college. Also, I don't plan on moving until I graduate--I'm an engineering major so graduation is still a ways off--so the tank isn't in danger of having to go anywhere anytime soon)


So now to the current time... I just rolled in two hours ago from my parents house. (they live about 4 hours away in the next state) The stress levels of the fish seems much better, but they are breathing really heavily, and still show the same erratic, rubbing behavior. I checked the water and the amonia and nitrate levels were pretty high. I changed another 15% of the water and dropped the salinity to 1.016. After changing the water I threw in 10 ml of amonia detox. Now an hour and a half later (just a few minutes ago) I checked the water and the nitrates and amonia seemed to improve, but still are a little high. The fish are still breathing heavy and displaying the same erratic, rubbing behavior. The coloring of the fish, especially the damsels, is back to normal, and the fish are back to their normal swimming around. However, the one remaining percula and the lyrtail wrasse are just sitting on the sand at about a 45 degree angle, not far from each other and not moving at all, breathing pretty heavily. The other guys keep rubbing up against stuff.

Does any of this make sense? I tried to recount what has been going on as best as possible. If anything is unclear, I will try and fix it. August 2003 with this 55 gal was my introduction to the salkwater side of the hobby, so I am learning more and more as I move on. This is the first time I have had trouble with the tank (aside from the major ick/velvet last May). The preceeding months excluding May have gone trouble free. Can anyone give me some advice about what is going on and what I should do both to fix the situation and avoid it in the future? The yellow tang just recently was my first loss to natural causes. (aside from the ick or velvet that caused a total tank loss in May) The few loses I have had in the past have been two to the wrasse and five to the hawaiian red lobster I used to have. The protein skimmer recently died on me and hasn't been replaced yet due to money as a result of college, but will be replaced soon.

I apologize for the lengthly post. I also apologize if some of my wording does not make the most of sense--it's 5 am, and because of this I am forfeiting the 3 hours of sleep I was planning on getting. ;) Any help or criticism is appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[deuce]

I forgot to mention:

The fins on most of the fish are pretty shreaded from the amonia (I presume) This all occured over the holiday.

The tank is mostly damsels (1 three-stripe, 1 4-stripe, 1 yellow, 1 yellow tail and 1 blue), with a 4 inch wrasse and a dying purcula. There is also a crab and a few turbo snails.

There is no live rock or coral as of now due to money constraints (there will be in the future)...just decorations for now.


The remaining purcula is pretty much as good as dead. I'm about to pull him out. The wrasse went into hiding, and I can't find him. He does this from time to time, and hides for a few days and then comes out. The rest of the guys seem to be fine, although they seem to be getting a little stressed. (possibly from the water change?)

[tussinhead]

My first question would be, if you have no LR and your protein skimmer is broken, what method of filtration are you using?

[deuce]

I have a Penguin 330 biowheel, and then there is also an areator on the opposite side of the tank. The protein skimmer doesn't foam anymore, so I took it out--just one more thing to collect algea and clean. The flow bar inside moves halfway up, but there isn't any sign of anything going on under the cup...the water there is still.

I just took a look at the tank...the wrasse came out from hiding now and he and the 5 damsels still around seem mostly normal now, aside from the scratching and heavy breathing. They're swimming around the surface, waiting for the feeder to spin; which I guess is a good sign. (the automatic feeder spins at 1:30 am and pm--so in about 35 minutes) Their coloring is normal, and still no visual signs of a parasite. The water is still pretty cloudy from the water change.

[tussinhead]

I would wait to hear from one of the more experienced posters, because I am not familiar with the symptoms you describe (shredded fins, rubbing) but you may have some filtration problem and/or oxygen deficit, and removing the protein skimmer may have made it bad enough that the fish are now responding negatively. You shouldn't be reading any ammonia at all.

I would stop adding the ammonia detox (it might be irritating the fish, too), and keep doing water changes to keep the ammonia levels down. Make sure you're using good water by testing it before adding it to your tank. You need to get to the point where your aquarium develops enough beneficial bacteria to handle your bioload and keep the ammonia and nitrites at zero. Your biowheel might not be enough to do this by itself, so I would seriously look into adding some LR to help with biological filtration.

I would also bring the salinity back up to normal and fix your protein skimmer and put it back to work.

Maybe someone else here can help you identify the exact cause of your fish's symptoms, but the things I've suggested can't hurt in any case.

[ClintoninCali]

Ahh... the joys of tank cycling. Your fish with the ratty fins that does the little dance up against the rocks probably has a bacterial infection of some kind. With the ammonia and Nitrite levels up that high the first line of defense is the fishes slime coating. With that gone say hello to disease. I agree with Tussin about stopping the Ammonia detox. The best way to get rid of ammonia and Nitrite is water changes and time. Do a good 25% change if you haven't recently and you might want to freshwater dip everyone just to clean any infections or kill any parasites. Adjusting the specific gravity in any tank relatively quickly is pretty harsh on some fish. I say water change, freshwater dip and wait it out. That penguin only filters that tank about 6 times an hour. You may want to think about setting up at least another 170 or even doubling up on the 330s. Emperor 280s are a little better and they're by the same company but you get 50 more gph for about the same price with the 330. Your LFS should have both.

[ClintoninCali]

Oh yeah! Make sure you use enough dechlorinator when you refill the tank. And dechlorinate before adding the water to the tank. Ammonia and chlorine together, now you know you in trouble. ( <-- blatant Snoop Dogg reference)

[deuce]

Well, since last Tuesday (a week ago) 50% of the water has been changed. And when I refered to "high" amonia I meant it was showing up on the stirips or was all the way into the stress zone on the strip. The amonia levels are considerably better and appear to be around .15 or .20 ppm. Since yesterday I've also been slowly bringing the salinity back to normal. Once I get the salinity up I'll do the freshwater dip as you mentioned.

Would just replacing the skimmer solve some of these problems or would you still suggest another filter or something? Back when I had the protein skimmer running I was performing much less work with the tank and never had any problems.

Also, these guys have been displaying this behavior for awhile now with no changes in behavior/health good or bad. (scratching, heavy breathing) What does that mean in terms of parasites/infection? Shouldn't the paracites be killing off the rest of the tank? I know damsels are fairly hardy but they've seemed to have been in bad shape for awhile now. Also, the wrase is doing these weird eel-like movement/dives now, different from his usual behavior. Does that indicate anything? (he'll kinda snake around, bringing his gills all the way around touching the middle part of his body, and then do a snaky dive. It's really weird) His fins are in the best shape and don't show any sins of fin riot but he is breathing heavily and scratching his gills with the rest of the guys.

Also, my rutine for changing water is I fill my "new water-only" 4 gal bucket with tap water and add a few drops of this chlorine/heavy metal remover and adjust my salt level in the bucket, then drop it in the tank and repeat. Is there anything that I should be doing different?

And finally, I just learned that I shouldn't be using windex to clean the outside of the windows. What should I be using instead?



P.S. ...ain't nothing but a g'thang baby ;)

[tussinhead]

I've been doing some reading, and I think you may indeed have some sort of parasitic or bacterial infection. The freshwater dip would be a good idea, and you might want to treat with some antibiotics, too. I've heard erythromycin is the best.

The first step would be to get your water parameters right, though. Get your protein skimmer running again. Keep doing small water changes every other day or so to keep the ammonia levels down while the tank cycles. You need to get to ZERO ammonia. I think you're probably marginally all right with your skimmer and existing filter, but it couldn't hurt to add more filtration. Don't add more LR until you've got this problem licked, though.

As far as your water changing routine, check the new water before you put it in the tank to make sure there is no ammonia in there.

If you have a glass tank, you can use windex. Just make sure you don't get any in the tank. A good way to do this is to just spray some on your rag and then wipe the tank glass. If your tank is acrylic, you need to use just plain water or a special cleaner designed for acrylic.

[ClintoninCali]

That windex could possibly be your problem though... Even by spraying it directly on the towel some particles are getting into the air and possibly into your tank. I don't know if that would bring your ammonia up unless that is what killed enough bacteria to cause an ammonia spike. I use nothing but water on all 75 tanks at my store. I don't even use windex on the front windows because we are so paranoid about the stuff. Either way, be careful.

I've used erythromycin before and it did seem to help. Mostly in cichlids though.

That dechlor you use... it says to only use a few drops? In a five gallon bucket I use some pretty good stuff and it takes a cap full. You didn't happen to get it at Walmart did you? <-- that's not a joke

[deuce]

No I got it at Petco, a LFS. (well, national chain) They are the only people that deal with saltwater in my city. (There is one other LFS, but they are expensive and rarely have much at all) However, the stuff at Petco is probably likely to be the same thing sold at Walmart...

I did a freshwater dip on just one guy so far...the remaining 3-stripe and 4-stripe and wrasse seem to be doing ok. (I'll watch to see if they still scratch) He is a yelllow tail damsel, and did great during the 5 minutes (swam around normally) but his eyes look like he's dead and his coloring is really blotchy. That was yesterday when I dipped him.

Thanks for the info on the windex...I'll just stick to water for the glass from now on.

So thinking about this situation, I have been having problems ever since that protein skimmer started acting up. Before then I didn't have to put much work into the tank at all and there was never a problem. I know the skimmer is important, but would a lack of one cuase these problems so consistently?

[tussinhead]

Considering the absence of LR or a DSB in your system, the removal of your protein skimmer could definitely cause the problems, IMO. That Emperor probably just doesn't do enough to keep up with your bioload on its own.

[deuce]

Ok thanks. I've been planning on getting live rock for awhile, and I guess this is as good a time as any. I'm looking at getting 40 lbs of carribean live rock. Live aquaria sells 40 lbs boxes for $100, which seems to be a good deal. With 40 lbs of LR, will it be a problem if I continue to put off replacing the protein skimmer a few more months? Or am I just asking for trouble? Do you have any recomendations for quality inexpensive protein skimmers? The last one I had was only $50 and worked very well for the short 8 months that it worked. Now I can't find anything close to that price.

Thanks

[Sueet]

Ok thanks. I've been planning on getting live rock for awhile, and I guess this is as good a time as any. I'm looking at getting 40 lbs of carribean live rock. Live aquaria sells 40 lbs boxes for $100, which seems to be a good deal. With 40 lbs of LR, will it be a problem if I continue to put off replacing the protein skimmer a few more months? Or am I just asking for trouble? Do you have any recomendations for quality inexpensive protein skimmers? The last one I had was only $50 and worked very well for the short 8 months that it worked. Now I can't find anything close to that price.

Thanks

Yikes! 40lbs of live rock with no skimmer? Don't do it, you'll kill everything, damsels included! In fact, even WITH a skimmer uncured rock would probably kill everything. You need a second tank, or bucket, or tub or whatever will hold the rock, an extra powerhead, and a small skimmer JUST to cure the rock! (I'm talking several weeks minimum before it goes into the tank!)

On the skimmer issue..... DO NOT base what skimmer you buy on $$!

Reason: Because one way or the other you WILL pay more than you paid if you buy a cheap one. Either by replacing lost livestock, in addition to extra cleaning duties, and extra salt for water changes, or by realizing that the cheap one just plain sucks and buying a better one after the fact. A skimmer is your most important equipment purchase, in terms of keeping your fish healthy, and you should, if possible, get the very best one that you can. I don't know what your budget is, or if you have a sump (probably not based on what I read, but maybe I missed something?)
Assuming that, then you need a hang-on skimmer, and the only one I've heard anything good about is the AquaC Remora Pro... There may be others, ask others here on the boards, you'll get better feedback on that. As for the price, well, I don't know, haunt ebay, or maybe you can find one for sale from a local reefer? I don't know if you have a community of reefers where you are, but it might be helpful to find out and get involved if you do. You can get great deals from other reefers vs. lfs'. I cannot stress it enough though... You NEED a good skimmer.. more than anything, especially in a small tank with that many fish and no rock!

One other thing, just a personal beef... Damsels suck! (tho they are pretty) Vicious mean little beasties, which will harass any fish not big enough to eat them, and they will definitely cause stress! Chromis do not count as damsels in this respect.