[lwkimbley]

I have a couple of questions. This is the reefer that lost all of his fish, anemone, snails, and crabs to copper and mg poisoning. I finally got my tank straight. Now I have a question what is the biggest tempature swing that fish can take. I have lost 8 chromis and I am having a 6 degree swing from night to day water temp. My heater is for up to 150 gallon tanks but it is in my sump. I am thinking it should be in my tank? Any ideas? Also is a 6 degree swing enough to kill the fish. Oh also I had taken all the glass off the top of the 125 gallon tank.

[Reefland]

What is the actual temperature range you are seeing?

[Poseidon]

I run 2 300 watt heaters in my sump and I get very little swing on way or the other. In addition to what Scott asked, how many GPH go thru your sump? THat also may make a difference as to why you get the swing...

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

I finally got my tank straight. Now I have a question what is the biggest tempature swing that fish can take. I have lost 8 chromis and I am having a 6 degree swing from night to day water temp.

I doubt that the six degree temperature swing would have killed your fish. It was probably due to something else.

My heater is for up to 150 gallon tanks but it is in my sump. I am thinking it should be in my tank? Any ideas?

I have a 120-gal tank with a 22-gal sump and all I use is a single 200w Ebo-Jagger heater located in my sump. It is set to maintain 79 degrees Fahrenheit, but it only comes on in the winter. My metal halide light fixture and my two miserable Little Giant pumps get the water temperature warm enough all by themselves most of the time.

My experience in southeast Louisiana has been that it is impossible to maintain reasonable water temperature without a chiller, even in a house with central A/C. I finally purchased a chiller but it is not yet installed. My water temperature would never fall below 82 F at night and then it would rise to 88 F by late afternoon if I didn't reduce the lighting period of the halides. Even with a 7" clip-on fan blowing across the top of the tank I was unable to run the metal halides for more than 7 hours in the warmest months if I wanted to keep the water temperature below 86 F.

I have never had a heat-related problem with any of my fish, clams or soft corals but I did lose my SPS due to someone closing the doors to my stand while I was away for the day causing my water temperature to hit 89 F.

Temperature stability in a captive reef aquarium is an important goal for the health of all of the tank's inhabitants, especially SPS; however, I believe most reef tanks can tolerate a swing of as much as four degrees Fahrenheit daily if the upper temperature does not rise above 84-85 F. That's not an ideal situation but I believe it is tolerable by most of the animals we keep. A diurnal swing of less than two degrees Fahrenheit would be much better if you can manage it. For most of us that means adding a chiller.

[lwkimbley]

The temp swing is from 78 deg F to 86 deg F. I also took the glass out of the top of the tank to allow more airflow. Also I added a mix of quartz sand and argonite sand about 120 lbs of each. I put all the sand in about 6 15 gallon rubbermaid containers. I put salt water from an old quarintine tank that was the following

Ammonia 5ppm
nitrites 0ppm
nitrates 40ppm

I put a power head in each container in 2 weeks the water was
Ammonia 0ppm
nitrites 0ppm
nitrates 15ppm
then I used a pvc pipe to place the sand in the aquarium (it took forever about 3 hours).
so in my 125gal tank I have
1 inch deep large crushed shells
1 inch crushed coral
3 inches of argonite/quartz sand
also 200lbs of live rock(fiji/florida)
I ran the water for close to 4 weeks my numbers were as follows
ammonia 1ppm
nitrites 0ppm
nitrates 20ppm
ph 8.2ppm
specific gravity 1.022
now after the 4 weeks
ammonia 0ppm
nitrites 0ppm
nitrates5ppm
ph 8.6
specific gravity 1.022
temp 78-86 deg f
now everything I put in the tank dies within 24 hours and it is always when I turn the lights off. I have a 300watt heater set at 76 deg f in my sump running about 800 gph through the system.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

so in my 125gal tank I have
1 inch deep large crushed shells

Clam shells? Oyster shells?

1 inch crushed coral
3 inches of argonite/quartz sand

Over the next 6 to 18 months, all of the smaller particle stuff will settle to the bottom of the tank and the larger crushed coral, etc., will end up on top.

ph 8.6

This should not be a problem it itself but it is a little on the high side. It would be better if the pH were 8.5 or less.

specific gravity 1.022

Think about raising this a little bit. Since it's a fish-only system, I think 1.023 SG would work. Reef tanks should be kept higher than that but for a fish-only tank many people go with lower salinity. I think 1.023 SG would be a good compromise. Personally I would probably go with at least 1.024 but that's another one of those topics that are open to debate for various reasons.

temp 78-86 deg f

Try to tighten up this daily range. That's a swing of 8 degrees. You need to get it down to 5 degrees or less.

now everything I put in the tank dies within 24 hours and it is always when I turn the lights off. I have a 300watt heater set at 76 deg f in my sump running about 800 gph through the system.

Is your pH swinging wildly during the 24-hr day? Did you get the measurement of 8.6 late in the afternoon or early in the morning? A reading of 8.6 is a little high for late in the afternoon but it's a disaster if that's what you're getting first thing in the morning.

I have a sneaky suspicion that your "1 inch deep large crushed shells" might be causing your problems with pH.

[Poseidon]

What about the Copper that originally caused the problem? How did you go about removing it? And did you find the source?

As for the flow that sounds about right, if it has less flow then that heaters in the sump would be less effective. Because not enough Warm water would be pumped into the display...

[lwkimbley]

My large crushed shells are from St. Pete Beach, Fl. I placed them in my quarintine tank for 4 weeks prior to placing them into my main tank. The crushed coral was from my lfs. The sand was from home depot.
I have tested my ph 5 times a day for three days straight. Morning before lights were turned on, midday, night, then two hours after lights were out, finally when I would wake up around 2 or 3 am, est. It was always 8.4 - 8.6, normally 8.6. I drip 1 drop per second of limewater at night and use baking soda to maintain my alkalinity 1 small box per gallon of water. My alk is at 5, my calcium is now at 400, my mg is 1300. I have thought about using a commercial two parter cal/alk, I have been told that commercial two parters lead to more stable ph but I am trying to save money.
Nothing is in the tank right now so I will do a 25 gallon water change and raise the salinity to 1.024-1.025. I have tried several of the salinity test kits and they all read my current salinity of 1.022, I thought at first maybe my salinity was higher or lower and my specific gravity tester was wrong.
I have a digital thermometer (target kitchen section $9.99) my water, lights or no lights is now 78-80 degrees. I have a two sectioned sump on the right is the gravity fed input, then fine spun polyester pad under that live fiji rock (where my bioballs use to be), under that a water area that feeds through a sponge filter to the side with my two mag 7's and modified seaclone 150 (I lowered the internal riser 2 inches). Since modifying the seaclone 150 I went from dumping waste twice a week to dumping a brownish green fluid everyday. My 300watt heater is under the live rock so my contact time is longer and before it was set at 76deg f now it is set at 78deg f. So maxium I have a 2 degree temp fluctuation.
I lowered the copper level conducting water changes. While I was away for 2 days my three lovely kids put shells in the tank from necklaces they had! The chain was gold plated with a copper/nickle base. I found 4 shells with a dark green color in them guess what that was? Hey it was copper! I removed all of their pretty shells, then was able to get the copper under control.
I just added two 300gph power heads. So I have the two inputs form the Mag 7's in the center of the tank pointing out pumping 800gph. I have the 2 power heads at the oppisite ends of the tank pointing in. So within the tank I have 1400gph flow, I dropped some food pellets in and the tank and the circulation is awesome. The surface agitation is great too. Is this too much water circulation? I worry when I place fish in the tank they will have trouble swimming around!
So as of today I will have the ph at 8.4, the salinity at 1.024-1.025, the temp at 78-80deg f. Ammonia, Nitirites, Nitrates at 0 ppm how long would you wait to add fish? Should I let the tank run awhile before adding livestock?

[lwkimbley]

How do I post pics from my harddrive?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

How do I post pics from my harddrive?

Below the "Reply to Thread" area you will see a section called "Additional Options." Click on "Manage Attachements." Then click on "Browse" to find the file on your harddrive. Then click on "Upload." Then click on "Close this window."

The picture will show up in your post as a thumbnail that can be clicked on to enlarge.

[lwkimbley]

Here are the current pics of my tank. I have 3 inches between the rock and the back of the tank.to allow good water flow.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

My large crushed shells are from St. Pete Beach, Fl. I placed them in my quarintine tank for 4 weeks prior to placing them into my main tank.

I remember reading somewhere that crushed shells were a bad idea for a marine aquarium. I know this sounds weird since they came from the ocean to begin with but it's something I remember reading somewhere. They warned particularly against using crushed oyster shells. I don't know if that's significant in your situation or not, just passing on something I remember reading.

P.S. -- I can't seem to find the reference I was looking for that cautioned against using crushed shells as a subtrate component. On the contrary, I found "crushed shells" listed as among the possible substrate choices for a reef aquarium in Volume One of Fossa & Nilsen's TMCRA series.

I drip 1 drop per second of limewater at night and use baking soda to maintain my alkalinity 1 small box per gallon of water.

Limewater (saturated solution of Ca(OH)2) is already a balanced additive that contains both calcium and carbonate in the correct ratios. If one is dosing limewater, there should be no need to add anything as a buffer.

My alk is at 5, my calcium is now at 400, my mg is 1300.

You will need to put the unit of measurement next to your alkalinity number for it to be meaningful. Obviously your Ca and Mg numbers are in mg/l (ppm) but there is no way for anyone to know whether you mean 5 dKH (which would be a little too low) or 5 mEq/l (14 dKH), which would be acceptable but at the upper end of the usual range for alk.

So maxium I have a 2 degree temp fluctuation.

That would be great. I wish I could say the same right now.

I lowered the copper level conducting water changes. While I was away for 2 days my three lovely kids put shells in the tank from necklaces they had! The chain was gold plated with a copper/nickle base. I found 4 shells with a dark green color in them guess what that was? Hey it was copper! I removed all of their pretty shells, then was able to get the copper under control.

OK, this is a serious problem if you ever intend keeping invertebrates in this tank. What you have done so far may be acceptable for fish (especially if you used a lot of activated carbon) but it is inadequate for delicate invertebrates. Copper is now adsorbed to the glass walls and all the equipment in your system in sufficient concentration to be toxic to inverts. The usual recommendation is that the tank must be sterilized in a VERY tedious and laborious manner with a series of acid baths, etc. I don't even want to get into that but you can do a search on this board or Reef Central for the recommended procedure. It's a VERY big undertaking! In the meantime, you should purchase a Cu test kit and see what reading you get before even thinking about going any further with your plans to restart the tank as is.

So as of today I will have the ph at 8.4, the salinity at 1.024-1.025, the temp at 78-80deg f. Ammonia, Nitirites, Nitrates at 0 ppm how long would you wait to add fish? Should I let the tank run awhile before adding livestock?

I would test for Cu first before doing anything else. Once your tank is completely free of copper, I would wait a minimum of five weeks before adding the first hardy fish. It would be OK to add a cleanup crew and so-called "detritivore kit" before adding your first fish assuming that you are sure that the tank is completely free of copper.

[lwkimbley]

What do people who use copper medicines do after they treat their tanks?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

What do people who use copper medicines do after they treat their tanks?

Most people move their fish to a separate hospital tank for treatment with copper. You can use copper to treat fish in a tank that is strictly fish-only. That means that it has no live rock and no inverts of any kind (snails, hermit crabs, shrimp, corals, etc.).

The copper is adsorbed to the surfaces of the glass, the equipment, the decorations, the live rock, etc., and it will be gradually released over time. While this is not enough to cause problems for fish, it is enough to be toxic to inverts.

[lwkimbley]

I have worked with Muratic acid baths while stationed with 2d Marine Division. So I could do that? However if I am getting 0 readings on Cu should I still conduct the Muratic Acid baths?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

I have worked with Muratic acid baths while stationed with 2d Marine Division. So I could do that? However if I am getting 0 readings on Cu should I still conduct the Muratic Acid baths?

I think that's probably a judgment call. A lot depends on the accuracy of the copper test. The problem is that if there is any copper at all in the system, it will be gradually released and even if the effects are not acute, they could be chronic. In other words, even if inverts don't kick the bucket right away, they may have a shortened life span.

Perhaps someone else will offer an opinion.

P.S. -- If all you're concerned about are fish, then you're good to go with a zero reading on a typical hobbyist copper test kit.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by lwkimbley

I have worked with Muratic acid baths while stationed with 2d Marine Division. So I could do that? However if I am getting 0 readings on Cu should I still conduct the Muratic Acid baths?

I think I should answer your question in more detail than I did in the previous post.

If you intend using the tank for inverts, then you will probably have to dispose of any and all live rock and substrate (sand) that was in the tank during the exposure to copper. It should be discarded.

You will have to run the muriatic acid rinse with all pumps running for several hours if you intend removing all traces of copper. This is an extremely tedious and hazardous procedure. I can't imagine ever doing it myself. Caution: Be extremely careful to never mix muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) with bleach. That will generate chlorine gas!

In this thread on Reef Central (you may have to register to read it), Dr. Ron Shimek explains the proper procedure: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...e+AND+muriatic