[nightmare11]

Help, I have what looks like rolling smoke in my tanks a 30 gal and a 55 gal. What can i do to help this.There is only 3 to 5 fish in each tank i feed them shrimp and brine shrimp.What can i do to get rid of this.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by nightmare11

Help, I have what looks like rolling smoke in my tanks a 30 gal and a 55 gal. What can i do to help this.There is only 3 to 5 fish in each tank i feed them shrimp and brine shrimp.What can i do to get rid of this.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "rolling smoke" but I'll take a stab at it anyway. If we are talking about individual drifting spirals of "smoke" no larger than about 0.5" x 2" in size, then it could be snails spawning. It could be a lot of things spawning. That would be my first guess.

It's hard to answer your question since you posted it in the fish-only forum and not the reef forum. If that means that you do not have live rock, or snails, or anything else in your tank other than the "3 to 5 fish," then I'm at a loss to explain what the "rolling smoke" might be.

[nightmare11]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "rolling smoke" but I'll take a stab at it anyway. If we are talking about individual drifting spirals of "smoke" no larger than about 0.5" x 2" in size, then it could be snails spawning. It could be a lot of things spawning. That would be my first guess.

It's hard to answer your question since you posted it in the fish-only forum and not the reef forum. If that means that you do not have live rock, or snails, or anything else in your tank other than the "3 to 5 fish," then I'm at a loss to explain what the "rolling smoke" might be.

This looks like a whiteish cloudiness in the water.There are no coral or anything like it in these tanks. They are fish only. puffers and a cow fish. We san't figure it out. Is a product called Algone any good?

[NoSump]

I've got the same problem.

Ninong suggested that it might be a calcium overdose - I checked and my calcium was around 400 (which is fine). I used some Seachem Clarity today to try to clear the tank. It had no impact - in fact, the brown color from the clarifier is now on every surface of the tank. If you are running a fish only tank, I don't imagine that you are using calcium additives. If it's snails spawning, that's one hell of a spawning. My tank is filled with the swirling white clouds.

Just before the outbreak, I did place a new piece of live rock in my tank, which my LFS advised me was fully cycled. I imediately placed it in my tank (which at this point contains only live rock and snails, crabs) and exposed it to lighting. My amonia and nitrite are at zero, and my nitrate is at 15ppm.

If you find out what the cause is, please let me know - I will do likewise.

Chuck

[NoSump]

Nightmare11:

One follow-up on your cloudy water - I've noticed that my tank is the most cloudy early in the morning. It appears as though whatever is causing the clouding occurs overnight when the tank is dark.

That may point to snail spawning - but they have to run out of ammo some time! Right now it is a daily event, and I had stoped my calcium/buffer additives to see if that helped. I'd be curious to hear if you are problem is most severe in the early am?

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

I've got the same problem.

Ninong suggested that it might be a calcium overdose - I checked and my calcium was around 400 (which is fine).

Calcium precipitation looks like snow falling in your tank. It doesn't look like "cloudy water" or "smoke." Individual "curls of smoke" or relatively small drifting wisps of smoke could be evidence of "something" spawning in your tank. Overall cloudiness could be many things. Unfortunately, most of the things that I can think of would not apply to a newly established system.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

It had no impact - in fact, the brown color from the clarifier is now on every surface of the tank.

That must be what Seachem calls the "advanced polymeric flocculating agent."

[Poseidon]

Only thing I add to my tank is Kalk! and of course FOOD!

All the other MAGIC POTIONS are a waste of cash in my opinion.

[NoSump]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Only thing I add to my tank is Kalk! and of course FOOD!

All the other MAGIC POTIONS are a waste of cash in my opinion.

My LFS, must really enjoy new people to the hobby that think we can solve all of the problems of chemistry and biology by adding a few teaspoons of liquid. I'd like to tell them what they can do with their "advanced flocculating agent".

In any event, I'm surprised that you two advanced aquarists havn't experienced the same thing - and imediately know the cause and cure. Even though my tank is relatively new, it has been up and running since December (I have been moving through the start-up process at a snails pace - no pun intended). As we discussed, it is full of all manner of snails and crabs. I have two monster turbos.

Is it likely that frisky turbos could be causing that much cloudiness - and is thier "happy time" usually after lights out? Would a snail spawn night after night to the point of clouding a 72 gallon tank for 5-6 hours?

One other issue, I recently placed some live rock that I obtained from a bin at my LFS (The Fish Place in Lancaster, PA), in which I was told a baby octopus was found earlier in the week. I placed the rock in my tank without any curing (they advised me that it had been in the bin for 3 weeks) and immediately exposed the rock to lighting. Can their be anything in the rock that is causing the swirls? It is now 7:30 PM and the tank is clear as a bell. By 7:00 am tomorrow it will be thick with swirling white clouds.

What do you guys thinK?


An unrelated FYI, I just got back from the Eastern Shore of Maryland. Thier is a mail order place in Mardela Springs, MD called Pacific East. They are primarily a mail order business, but are open on Saturdays for walk-ins. I purchased some beautiful pieces of Tonga Rock for a great price. You can hand pick your rock from the bins, and save the time and expense of shipping. I hope that it doesn't sound like I'm shilling for the place, I was impressed with the business and wanted to pass it along to anyone in the Mid-Atlantic Region (They are an hour west of Ocean City, MD). They are also nice folks. If you visit, be careful, the Maryland State Police had a speed trap set up in the area today.

Thank you and my appologies to our live rock sponsors.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

In any event, I'm surprised that you two advanced aquarists havn't experienced the same thing - and imediately know the cause and cure.

Sorry, but I haven't and don't.

Even though my tank is relatively new, it has been up and running since December (I have been moving through the start-up process at a snails pace - no pun intended).

A snail's pace is about right. Much faster than that and you will get the equivalent of a speeding ticket from the Maryland State Police.

Would a snail spawn night after night to the point of clouding a 72 gallon tank for 5-6 hours?

No. Not all mollusks have the same modes of reproduction, so it's impossible to generalize. I have no idea what's going on in your tank.

One other issue, I recently placed some live rock that I obtained from a bin at my LFS (The Fish Place in Lancaster, PA), in which I was told a baby octopus was found earlier in the week. I placed the rock in my tank without any curing (they advised me that it had been in the bin for 3 weeks) and immediately exposed the rock to lighting. Can their be anything in the rock that is causing the swirls?

Possibly. If you see something weird, take a picture!

An unrelated FYI, I just got back from the Eastern Shore of Maryland. Thier is a mail order place in Mardela Springs, MD called Pacific East.

That would be Dr. Mac & sons. Yes, I have ordered from him. Glad to see you got to visit his new facility. You can see pics here: http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/newfacility/

[NoSump]

That would be Dr. Mac & sons. Yes, I have ordered from him. Glad to see you got to visit his new facility. You can see pics here: http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/newfacility/

Ninong:

That's the place. It's a beautiful facility, in the middle of nowhere. They are really very friendly and helpful people.

The problem is that when I go to a place like that, with all manner of corals and invertibrates on display; my wife and little girl can't understand why after more than three months we still can't add any of those "cool" things to our tank. They are really getting tired of hearing "cycling" and "curing".

Thank you for your thoughts on my "clouds". It sounds as though my best bet may be to remove the rock to a curing bin for one night, and see if I still have a problem the next day. At least my algae bloom has cleared, as you advised it would.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

I'd like to tell them what they can do with their "advanced flocculating agent".

"Advanced polymeric flocculating agent!"

That must be the brown stuff that looks like clay that is stuck to the surfaces of your equipment and tank walls.

I guess Seachem just likes to make things complicated. I still can't figure out why they needed to chelate calcium with polygluconate. They already sell a calcium chloride additive.

One thing you have to remember in this hobby is that the manufacturers are selling a wide array of products. Many of these products are unnecessary. Often the manufacturers will do things to their products that can be detrimental to the health of some of the animals we keep and often they will use materials based on their cost rather than their efficacy. You can't count on the employees at the LFS to steer you in the right direction because they get paid to sell whatever is on the shelves. If you really want to drive them crazy, just start asking them "Do I need this?" for each of the potions on their shelves and see what they say. Of course they will say "Yes." Then you ask them to explain why and they go nuts.

Getting back to Seachem as an example. Besides the polymeric and polygluconate and assorted other poly-somethings that they employ in their products, they are still adding extra boric acid to their salt mix: http://www.seachem.com/products/prod.../Reefsalt.html

Notice from their chart that the boron content is nearly four times NSW levels. They are the only salt mix manufacturer with such elevated boron levels. Elevated boron levels can be harmful to certain corals. They aren't adding extra boron because they think we need extra boron. They're probably adding it to control pH stability by increasing borate alkalinity. We got into a discussion with Greg Morin about this a couple of years ago on another board and he said he would look into it. He's the Research Director and, since 2001 when his father died, CEO of Seachem. I believe his Ph.D. is in either chemistry or biochemistry.

It was also pointed out to him that his PhosGuard product does actually leach aluminum into saltwater and aluminum can be harmful to corals, especially leathers. He promised to look into that, too. Most of the other manufacturers switched away from alumina (Al2O3) years ago because of this problem but Seachem is still selling pure alumina pellets as a phosphate sponge. Picture of the product: http://www.seachem.com/products/prod...PhosGuard.html
FAQ section with Seachem's statement, "We are looking into the matter more closely so that we can provide a meaningful cautionary statement." http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/PhosGuard_faq.html
And Seachem's admission, "Furthermore, the amount of aluminum that is released is in the microgram range. In other words, an extremely low level that from a chemical standpoint would be characterized as 'non-soluble'..." Yes, and from the standpoint of certain leather corals, it would be characterized as toxic. IIRC the testing that was done by Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley showed aluminum at 0.06 ppm in the saltwater prior to the use of Phosguard and then 0.40 ppm subsequent to using Phosguard "exactly according to the manufacturer's directions," including the freshwater rinse before using it. Aluminum at 0.50 ppm is toxic to certain corals. Seachem seems to think that this "problem" is "temporary." Randy seems to think that the aluminum additions will be cumulative and build up over time.

This was discussed with Greg Morin in Reef Central's Chemistry Forum a couple of years ago. I guess he's still "looking into it." Other manufacturers, such as Salifert whose owner has a Ph.D. in chemistry, have already looked into it and switched to iron based phosphate sponges years ago.

[NoSump]

Thanks Ninong:

I guess I've probably invested about as much on useless chemicals as I have on my speeding ticket yesterday! Well, now I know better. I'll stick with Calcium, Iodine, Buffer, and foods - period.

My next project is going to be to add an overflow box, and a sump (I'll have to change my handle). If past experience is any guide, I'm sure that I will be asking you a few questons along the way

By the way, my tank is clouded with the same old swirling white "smoke" again this morning - it's really driving me nuts!



Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Thanks Ninong:

I guess I've probably invested about as much on useless chemicals as I have on my speeding ticket yesterday! Well, now I know better. I'll stick with Calcium, Iodine, Buffer, and foods - period.

Never add iodine unless you have tested your water first and are certain that your total iodine (iodide/iodate) concentration is less than NSW levels of 0.06 ppm. Excess iodine is toxic to just about everything, which is why it is used to kill pathogens, etc.

Testing of tankwater from 23 typical reef tanks a few years back showed that none of them had iodine levels below NSW levels even though many of those tanks had never had a drop of iodine added. The range was from twice NSW levels to much, much higher than NSW levels. That's because iodine is present in most of the foods we feed the tank.

[Ninong]

Iodine and strontium should never be added UNLESS you have tested your tankwater first and determined that your levels are below NSW levels. Elevated levels of either iodine or strontium can be harmful. Elevated strontium levels in humans causes malformed bones and it does something similar in stony corals in that it interfers with the deposition of calcium on the skeletal matrix.

Strontium is present in seawater and it is very close in chemical composition to calcium. It is found in coral skeletons in the same ratio that it is found in seawater. Whether it is "required" or not has never been established. Mercury is present in tuna but that doesn't mean it is required.

We know for a fact that too much strontium is harmful just as too much iodine is harmful. Knowing that, we should strive to keep our iodine and strontium concentrations in a natural range. That means we don't add stuff just because someone writes an article telling us we have to add "trace elements" if we want to have a nice reef tank. Often times the person who wrote the article also sells "trace element" additives.

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thannk you, I had read somwhere that shrimp benefit from iodine suplements?

I have not yet added Iodine, I was planning on using it as a suplement when shrimp where added.

Based on your comments, it's off the list.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Suggested reading: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=102605

That should keep you busy for several weeks! Be sure to read the articles on iodine and strontium first.

Besides being a hobbyist, Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley is a vice-president of research at Genzyme Corporation.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong:

Thannk you, I had read somwhere that shrimp benefit from iodine suplements?

Yes, I've read that, too!

All crustaceans molt. They manage to do this quite well in the ocean where iodine levels average 0.06 ppm. You can induce premature molting in crustaceans by adding iodine to their environment. Excess iodine is toxic to shrimp. They detoxify themselves by depositing the excess iodine in their exoskeleton and then shedding the exoskeleton.

So... Shrimp do NOT need iodine above NSW levels. Most tanks already have iodine levels above NSW levels without the use of any iodine supplements. Some hobby authors advise you to add iodine! Don't believe everything you read. Add iodine ONLY if your levels are below NSW levels of 0.06 ppm.

This guy has a 718-gal reef tank. He used to have a 300-gal reef tank before he upgraded four years ago. He has been keeping reeftanks for 20 years. His reef tanks have been pictured in several books and magazines. He has NEVER added iodine to any of his reef tanks because he correctly states that the food that he feeds keeps the iodine levels at or above NSW levels without any iodine supplements: http://www.underseadiscovery.com/home.htm

Dr. Ron Shimek's food analysis article showing iodine concentrations in typical foods: http://web.archive.org/web/200306081...data/foods.asp

[Reefland]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Thanks Ninong:

I guess I've probably invested about as much on useless chemicals as I have on my speeding ticket yesterday! Well, now I know better. I'll stick with Calcium, Iodine, Buffer, and foods - period.

My next project is going to be to add an overflow box, and a sump (I'll have to change my handle). If past experience is any guide, I'm sure that I will be asking you a few questons along the way

By the way, my tank is clouded with the same old swirling white "smoke" again this morning - it's really driving me nuts!



Chuck

NoSump,

Is this "cloud" you have rolling through the water column or just on the surface?

[Poseidon]

On the smoke, does ANYTHING else change in your tank overnight? Tempature, pumps on or off, lights? There HAS to be a cause somewhere, I have not seen what you describe in all my experience either. Kinda sounds like when I added Ca supplement AND and Alkalinity supplement at the same time... Before I used Kalk I used the Sea Chem products, and if you mix the 2 you get a precipitate that may look like what you describe...