Porcupine puffer with Ich

[Debunny]

First of all, I have read through all of the articles on here about ich and the links provided. Our porcupine puffer has it and we are new to the salt water tank hobby. We have a 55 gallon tank, we plan on getting a larger tank later though with the puffer in mind. We have a few snails, a hermit crab, a maroon clown, an engineer gobie, two choc chip stars and one brittle star. We only have about 5 pounds of live rock as of yet and have 60 pounds live sand. As I said we are novices though we are reading and learning everything as we go. My question is does our puffer stand a chance of surviving ich with the severe case he has if we do all that is suggested? I know copper isnt to be used on him so is the hyposalinity the only way? I feel so sorry for him as we are really attached already to the little guy. We had read somewhere that you could freshwater dip them and that would help with the ich but then I read on here that that is pretty much useless for it. He is covered with it and his eyes are already clouding over, hes breathing so hard and he has stopped eating as of last night. I am going to read some more and see if I have overlooked anything but if he is this far gone does he stand a chance? And one more question, if he is put in OT what happens to the ich? doesnt the cycle still just go on, or when they fall off into the hyposalinity water does that automatically kill them? Thanks so much for any advice. Oh btw so far none of our other fish are showing any sign of ich so does that mean they could have got a resistance to it or need to be qt with the puffer?

Debbie

[sweetrav18]

First off good luck! It sounds unfortunately that you puffer isnt goin gto make it. I have had good luck with an organic product called ICH Attack by Kordon. Also, make sure you feed them diced up garlic or food soaked in it. Other than that the only remedy that gets rid of the ich for sure is to remove all the fish from the tank for 6 weeks and the bacteria with die without a fish to live off of.

[Ninong]

Hi Debunny, welcome to Reefland!

My question is does our puffer stand a chance of surviving ich with the severe case he has if we do all that is suggested? I know copper isnt to be used on him so is the hyposalinity the only way?

You can't use hyposalinity in your display tank because it would kill all of your invertebrates including the microcrustaeans and polychaetes in your live rock and sand. You really need to remove all of your fish to a hospital tank for treatment, either hyposalinity or copper. I would choose hyposalinity.

Another possibility (maybe) would be to remove the invertebrates from your tank and treat the tank with hyposalinity for at least four weeks. That would kill off all of the amphipods, copepods and polychaetes in your live rock and sand but it would also eliminate the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite from your tank. I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm just pointing out that it might be something to consider.

The only alternative is to treat ALL of your fish in a separate tank while allowing your main display tank to remain fallow (fishless) for four to six weeks.

If none of those options seem appealing, you might try feeding the fish in your tank with finely minced fresh garlic. That sometimes helps but it is not usually effective in severe cases. Simply chop up a small amount of fresh garlic extremely fine and add about 1/8-1/4 tsp to a half cup of tank water and then add your normal food to that and let it soak for about 20 minutes before feeding the whole mess to the tank. Most fish will actually eat the tiny pieces of garlic.

Hyposalinity works by breaking the life cycle of the parasite. The encysted stage cannot mature and hatch in low salinity water. The water must be gradually brought down to at least 1.010 SG (1.009 might be even better) over a period of a couple of days and then kept there for three weeks. When you begin to return the SG to normal levels, you have to take it very slow and spread it out over several days. Then you can return the fish to the main aquarium, which has been left without any fish at all during this period -- a period of at least four weeks.

If your puffer dies within the next day or so before you are able to do anything about it, feed your remaining fish with finely minced garlic at least once a day for the next four weeks.

We had read somewhere that you could freshwater dip them and that would help with the ich but then I read on here that that is pretty much useless for it.

It is not effective because that stage of the parasite can withstand being dipped in freshwater without difficulty. And besides, as soon as you return him to the infected display tank, new theronts will find him and attach.

He is covered with it and his eyes are already clouding over, hes breathing so hard and he has stopped eating as of last night.

He probably won't make it more than another day or two.

And one more question, if he is put in OT what happens to the ich? doesnt the cycle still just go on, or when they fall off into the hyposalinity water does that automatically kill them?

If you place him in a Q-tank and begin the hyposalinity treatment, it will take a full four weeks or more to do it properly. For one thing, the parasite can survive in moderately low salinity. The salinity has to be brought all the way down to 1.009-1.010 and kept there for three weeks. When you add in a couple of days for dropping it and another five or six days for raising it, you're looking at a minimum of a month in the quarantine tank.

Don't overlook the fact that it is necessary to remove all of the fish from the tank. You cannot leave the others in the tank even if you don't see any obvious parasites on them.

Oh btw so far none of our other fish are showing any sign of ich so does that mean they could have got a resistance to it or need to be qt with the puffer?

It could mean several things but the only way to do this and be 100% sure of eliminating the parasite is to remove all of the fish from the tank for at least four weeks.

[acer]

Hi- We had a great speaker at our local meeting who was very knowledgable regarding puffers. You should be able to get her name/e-mail from our website= Pittsburgh marine aquarium society. She did a great talk with slides,etc. and really knew her stuff. She was a real believer in vitamins,etc. including a suppliment called Beta Glucan for immune system stimulation. She should beable to tell you where to get it and dosage. Good luck.

[Debunny]

First off, thank you all so much for the advice. I took all of the fish and invertes out of the tank and put them in a Q-tank so we could treat the display tank. We decided to leave the puffer in the display tank as we treated it as we figure he probably does not have much time left anyway so why bother to expose the rest of the fish to ich in the Q-tank anymore than we have to anyway. We went to the store last night, Walmart as no pet store around here was open on Easter, and bought Quick Cure from Aquarium Products to treat the tank since it was fallow except for the poor puffer. Well, we havent given up hope on him yet and have tried to feed him on and off all night and today and low and behold he has started tryign to eat again and is up and swimming some again. His eyes are still cloudy pretty much but his skin color is improving and before he acted like he could not see anything in front of him and now when I go near the tank he is swimming up to great me. I am trying to not get my hopes up because I know you are supposed to use the Quick Cure on puffers but when all hope is gone what do you do? He is definitely improved but I dont know whether to just leave him in the display tank while continuing treatment or move him into the Q-tank with the others. Or even how long do I need to treat the tank with the quick cure. it says it can cure ich in 2 days but that doesnt seem possible. I cant use the hyposalinity in the Q-tank because my stars and snails are all in there too. For some reason our Brittle star fell apart though and died. I mean, literally fell apart.I have never saw anything like it.Not sure if any of the others picked on him or what as I havent saw them mess with him til he died. He has become lunch for the hermit crab so DH will have to fish his remains out when he gets home from work. Again thank you all for the welcome and the advice. debbie

[Debunny]

actually that should have been that you Arent supposed to use Quick cure on puffers. sorry about that

[Arctic Fox]

um, I am reading from different places that the main ingredients in "Aquarium Products Quick Cure" are;
from: http://groups.msn.com/AngieandAndrew...dications.msnw
"Formalin and malachite green"
from: http://www.angfa.org.au/disease.html
"Formaldehyde - 1031.0 g/litre and Malachite Green - 19.2 g/litre"
from: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php
"Formalin is a form of formaldehyde and is often used by fish farmers and home aquarists to treat ich. It can be purchased under its chemical name, or found as the active ingredient in products such as Ick Guard II® by Jungle, and Formalite III® by Aquatronics (which also contains copper). While it is non-staining and said to be safe for live plants (and at lower dosages…) scaleless fish, eggs and fry, it is nevertheless a strong chemical – a preservative for biological specimens (AKA embalming fluid). It may damage your biological filter, deplete oxygen levels in the aquarium, and destroy invertebrates and weak fish. Its toxicity increases with water temperature and acidity, making it a questionable choice for soft water fish.
Malachite Green is an ominous substance that’s highly effective against Ich and fungi. It can be purchased separately under its chemical name, or found as the active ingredient in products such as Maracide® by Mardel, Ich Cure® by Aquatrol, Super Ich Plus® by Aquatronics, and Fungus Plus® by Aquatronics. It is carcinogenic and dangerous to handle or breathe (especially for pregnant women). There are rumors circulating that it could be banned for aquarium use by the FDA in the future. It cannot be used on food fish and is toxic to eggs, fry, some varieties of tetras, catfish, elephant noses, loaches and small marine fish. It also may damage your biological filter and will likely stain aquarium decorations and silicone sealant. Malachite Green is light sensitive, and you will be advised to keep your aquarium lights off during treatment to prevent the chemical from oxidizing.

Formalin and Malachite Green are often used in conjunction with one another. The two chemicals are said to have a synergistic effect when combined, having a greater impact together than either one by itself. Products include Rid-Ich+® by Kordon, Quick Cure® by Aquarium Products, Cure-Ick® by Aquarium Products, Ick Guard® by Jungle, and Formalite I® by Aquatronics. This combination of chemicals is probably the most common choice for treating ich."

I'd be real careful using this product, as it sounds pretty bad for your puffer, but at least it has no copper, that'd be REAL bad. It's not so much the Formalin I'm worried about, it's the Malachite Green, it's very carcenagenic, and from what I'm been reading it kills your biological filter.

[marxsman]

has anybody else heard of leaving the tank lights on for a few days?

I was told to do this before and I did and leaving the lights on helped get rid of ich in my tank

[Debunny]

Thanks for the advice on the Quick Cure. My poor puffer passed on early this morning. We had a feeling he was already too far gone to save; he was just ragged looking. I guess when he ate the other night it was just his last ditch effort to make it. He quit eating again so we kinda knew it was coming. We are just going to leave the tank fallow and not treat it anymore with the quick cure. We only treated it 3 times so maybe that wont be too bad on the biological filter. After the 4-6 weeks are up we will put our gobie, stars and maroon clown back in. I havent read anything about leaving the light on. If it worked that would be great though. We did learn one thing out of this though. Quarantine our fish no matter how healthy they look til we are 100% positive they are healthy. BTW, Dh said no more puffers for us. that was the second one to die on us, though we have no clue what happened with the first one, he just turned half of his body completely white within a few hrs and then puffed up and died. Everyone else in the tank was fine. They are just too pricey with our luck. Thanks again for all of the advice. I will definitely be sticking around on here learning. Debbie

[almostdiva]

Thanks for the advice on the Quick Cure. My poor puffer passed on early this morning. . We are just going to leave the tank fallow and not treat it anymore with the quick cure. We only treated it 3 times so maybe that wont be too bad on the biological filter. After the 4-6 weeks are up we will put our gobie, stars and maroon clown back in.

Debbie,

First of all, VERY sorry for your loss. porky puffs are really cute. The formalin and the malachite green in the Quick Cure have totally killed your biological filter -- it doesn't really matter how many times you used it, b/c the chemicals are so potent. It will regenerate itself over time, but I would definitely monitor your water parameters over the next few weeks, as your sytem is essentially going to have to re-cycle -- you left the rock and sand in, correct? Also, your fish in QT may still come down with something, unfortunately. If this should happen, I would recommend using another product other than Quick Cure -- the malachite green might be too hard for the goby to take. When I first got started in the hobby, I made the mistake of not quarantining several new fish. Long story short lost everything and used a product called Greenex, which is also malachite green. One of the fish I lost was a dwarf fu manchu lion -- a scaleless fish like your puff. Scale-less fish are very intolerant of malachite green and of copper. Formalin is best for them -- just be careful of the dose and follow the directions.

Also, you should be sure to pull out all the meds from your display tank before you put ANYTHING back (especially your stars and snails -- you saw what the stuff does to them). My favorite item for this purpose is poly filter by BioMarine. You can get it just about everywhere online or at most fish stores. Put it in your overflow or sump, let it sit there for several days. It will turn colors as it pulls the junk out -- green most likely. Change it with a new piece until you no longer get green but get brown (the color of dirty water when you do a water change).

Here are some links you might find helpful...

[URL=http://www.wetwebmedia.com/puffcareinfo.htm[/URL]

[URL=http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pufferdisfaqs.htm[/URL]

One of the wet web "crew" Jenni, aka Pufferpunk has been keeping puffers (of all kinds) for years. I know I read an article on their site that she wrote, but it may be archived.

Don't give up on them -- just quarantine your next one from the beginning and you'll have much better success. Probably just about everyone on this board has lost fish to disease -- especially in the beginning.

Good Luck!

Rebecca

[rball79]

I had bought a coral beauty and two days after having the fish I noticed it had ich well I went to the pet store and they would not sell me any chemicals, they said to drop the salinity and raise the temp. So I tried it to make a long story short it didnt work and I lost all my fish. My question is how long can ich survive without a host? When can I put more fish in?

[Ninong]

To be safe, you should leave the tank without fish for at least four weeks.

[gothicproud]

Hi Im Mandy, Just joined as a member. Dont think for a moment that the other fish will not be affected by ICK because they will. First of all are any of the other fish in the tank showing these symtoms, irritation and glancing (bumping against) rocks and plants, usually severe gill irritation since the parasites are filtered off the gills (same with velvet disease). This causes the fish to rub the nose and head region against the plants or rocks. (Mine was also rubbing its body as well). White spots up to 1 millimetere across will start to appear. If you have a light with your tank, turn it on, or put a light near the tank. The symtoms will be very clear if other fish are getting spots (the light shows everything clearer than normal daylight). And, the gills are often severely infected and respiration impeded before many spots are visible on any other parts of the fish. Eventually, body, fins and tail may be covered by the spots in untreated fish. MY FISH HAS GOT IT AT THE MOMENT. The drug of choice is QUININE HYDROCHLORIDE at 30milligrams per litre of water, or QUININE SULPHATE which is less soluble, but may be used. To be LESS TECHNICAL just go to your Aquariumn dealer for a whitespot muliticure. Take a photo on your mobile, if you can, of the leader of the infestation and of any other fish that may be suffering. Buy a 5litre bottle of distilled water. If you cant buy the distilled water, dont stress. When you get home afterwards DO THIS FIRST - Boil a kettle of water, as much as you need to fill the tank. Let it cool, then transfer all fish to a CLEAN BOWEL with CLEAN WATER. Take everything out of the tank. Gravel especially (the parasites lave hatch there). Clean the tank thoroughly. Then, get a bucket of hot water and clean the tank again. Be fussy, you want to kill the paraisites you cant see that cling themselves to the glass. Put the cool, distilled water in the tank and add "stress coat", alge control etc. Leave only this in the tank. Air tubes for bubbles. And a Heater. Put the heater up to 17 degrees for COLDWATER FISH, no warmer than that. Once that is done, tip as much water out of the bowel that your fish are in before you pour the rest into the tank. Then, just follow the instructions thats on the whitespot multicure you have bought. Good Luck, gothicproud, Mandy.

[gothicproud]

Dont put the puffer back with the other fish. He is still sick. Wait for a complete recovery, which means, skin and fins without ANY SNOW, or specks of, and, he's not showing signs of swimming around and then dropping to the bottom of the tank for a long rest. If you put him back in with the other fish they will be infected. My goldfish is still sick with whitespot. Because he is so badly infected, I was told it could take up to a week before I see a real change, and thats with whitespot treatment, a multicure. Keep your puffer isolated from the others. I know all of this makes a person stessed-out and anxious. When your like that, you risk making mistakes. I suggest you go on the internet and buy a whitespot multicure, some companies can deliver in 24 hours.

We all love our fish. They are our pets. A part of the family. We love so much that when, fungas, tail rot, whitespot etc., attacks them, we worry to the point of feeling drained by it all. Just take each day as it comes. Thats all you can do. Don't make yourself sick by worrying, that wont change the outcome, and, if you are, doing the later, you owe yourself go give yourself a break. GET OUT OF THE HOUSE. Good luck to puffy.

[gothicproud]

I didnt read this till after I put through my earlier response. So very sorry that you have lost him. If this ever happens again, you will know what to do now. I always have a little ritual if any of my fish die. It makes me feel alot better. Plus, it shows that you respected and loved the time you had with that fish. Its really hard sometimes, especially when you have raised them since they were babies. Anyway, concentrate now on the fish you have left. Probably a good idea to use some whitespot treatment on them for a week. Just in case. They may look fine but are they? And, before I forget, whitespot 9 time out of 10 is a treatable deasease. Good luck with the others.