[rjs5134]

I've purchased and setup a small QT for the treatment of my blue tang and others and the future inhabitants. The question is: Do eels need to be treated for ich or are they like sharks and not succeptible? Also what about lawmower(algae) blennies? My blenny showed no signs during the outbreak of ich.

Thanks as always.

[patandreba]

From my experience, scaleless fish, like eels, are not as succeptable to ich, and it's a good thing, because most ich medications aren't meant to be used with scaleless fish. Kind of the same with freshwater fish, like loaches. I have had an outbreak before, and neither my blennie, maroon clown, or damsel were infected, but everything else was. I honestly think it is a stress factor. Maybee if the fish has a healthy slimecoat and no other weaknesses, they won't be hurt by the parasite.

[The R/C Man]

Garlic helps the fish's immune system. Some store bought foods contain it in the ingredients listing. I make a mixture of different foods that I keep in the freezer which contains fresh minced garlic, mysis shrimp, formula one cubes, nori and freeze dried plankton.....

Proper acclimation reduces stress and so does proper water perameters such as lower nitrates etc.... Just some thoughts. I hoped that helped..

[rjs5134]

Thanks for the ideas... What I really need though is; Are eels and lawnmower blennies capable of fulfilling the ich parasites need for a host? In order to rid my tank of ich once and for all, I need to remove the host fish for atleast 6 weeks to break the cycle. Learned this by researching Reefland's threads and links.

Thank for your help

[prow]

Originally Posted by rjs5134

Thanks for the ideas... What I really need though is; Are eels and lawnmower blennies capable of fulfilling the ich parasites need for a host? In order to rid my tank of ich once and for all, I need to remove the host fish for atleast 6 weeks to break the cycle. Learned this by researching Reefland's threads and links.

Thank for your help

i am not sure who told you that. you can never rid your tank of ich. it is always present. the object during a break out is to reduce the free floating colonies. your right we need to break the cycle but it really only drops the number of reproducing colonies but will not rid your tank of it. just like getting an algae bloom of say hair algae if you dont break the cycle it will consume your tank but even if you dont see it, it is always present in the tank. the same basic principles apply with ich. taking out the host will help. the six weeks of isolation is the whole reproductoin proccess and life cycle of ich (the amount of time eggs are laid and hatched and with no host the babies live and die without laying more eggs thus breaking the cycle). problem here did you get the right host and will another tank mate become a host. the good part about your fish getting sick is in the future they will be less likly to get sick again as thier immune systems have been exposed and developed antibodies to that particular antigen thus reducing there chance of getting it again. of course if stressed the immune system gets compromised making them more suseptable to any oppertunistic parasites like ich. i tried many expensive medications at various times but they only work on the ich not their eggs that is why you need to use it for so long because your waiting for the eggs to hatch for the medication to work on them. i have found that the best way to help your fish fight off the infection is to increase the water temp to about 82 degrees F or higher. the higher temp makes the cell body membranes of most parasites and their eggs weak and break up easly increasing the effectivness of the fishes own immune system then death .the temp also helps with the fishes stress further increasing their immune system. futher more the higher temp shortens the life span of the parisite shortening the juvinile stage making them adults and more succetable to various medications. i have had two outbreaks of ich in the past year due to the addition of new fish. i turnned the temp up and 1 day you could see a major change in the fish for the good. after about 3 days there were no more signs of ich at all. didnt do any water change or anything else and the fish that got it in the past have never been sick again even if their tank mates get sick. if you really want to use medication i would try erythromycin, if you can get some, and feed it to the sick fish(not to much) but do not put it in the tank with your corals it will kill them. this is the only thing i know that will kill the ich in the fish other medications are only good for ich that is not already burrowed in your fish and has no effect on the parasites within the fish. i would not do anything with the eel though. and yes even sharks can be used as a host but that does not mean they will get sick a host is just a living median used by bac. parasites fungus ect.. to reproduce and transport itself. ich is much like a skin disease they burrow into the skin and lay thier eggs causing inflammation and puss formation in the fishes "skin" then hatch and leave the host. ich has a hard time doing this in scaleless fish because like us they continuously grow new skin and shed thier old skin(much more rapidly than humans) so i dout they would use your eel. well hope this helps and good luck with that.

[rjs5134]

The attached article is where I heard that a tank can be rid of ich.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.htm

I use crushed garlic once or twice a week and within a week of it's use the outbreak appeared to clear up. A week or two later it came back with a vengeance and killed my orbic bat and is pretty bad on the hippo tang. The garlic seems to have little effect now.

[prow]

well technicality we can rid our water in our tank of everyliving thing all bacteria all parasites etc..but once a bac or parasite is there you must make everything sterile to rid you tank of it. ture if it never gets in the tank your tank will be free of it. in order to prevent it than we must sterilize everything before it goes into the tank. imposible to do without killing anything you intend to add to you tank. and chances are good that some are lying dormant or if getting technical in a sub-clinic state within your fish or other living thing remember there are a lot of living things in our tanks for them to live on not just fish. you will not see any effects and the population is minimal and will not produce the signs and symptoms. but given the oppertunity they will infest once again as you have seen. still the best way to treat this threat is to increase temp. they say to decrease the salinity too but i just raise the temp and it has worked everytime. if it is a bad outbreak i soak my fishes food in some strong medicine and target feed him. about the report everyone should be careful when using scientific reports or research as all the variables are controlled in their labs. perhaps when they did there research the fish they used were in a tank with no substrate live rock or anyting else. but what if the ich is in a tube worm or bristle worm how you going to rid the tank of it. the host may never show signs that is why people say it is always present in a tank.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by prow

about the report everyone should be careful when using scientific reports or research as all the variables are controlled in their labs. perhaps when they did there research the fish they used were in a tank with no substrate live rock or anyting else. but what if the ich is in a tube worm or bristle worm how you going to rid the tank of it. the host may never show signs that is why people say it is always present in a tank.

Are we still talking about Marine Ich Cryptocarion irritans ?
If so, it is a host specific parasite( fish in this case) and will not attach to anything else in it's reproductive cycle. Yes, the cycts may and will be attached to substrate of any form but to continue it's life cycle it needs a specific host.
This brings us to the point that yes, this parasite could be iliminated from the tank, providing that you will keep it fallow( void of fish) for 6-8 weeks. You than must quarantine all new fish for at least a month to not re-introduce the parasite. Very simple and could be done, doesn't have to be in the lab either.

[prow]

if you say so. your the one with the ich not me. i solved my issue and temp is how i did it. besides how long do you think the cyct will last on say live rock if you think a week or two well your bad. by the way there are many forms/strains of marine ich and they dont all act the same. that being said good luck with your ich problem.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by prow

if you say so. your the one with the ich not me. i solved my issue and temp is how i did it. besides how long do you think the cyct will last on say live rock if you think a week or two well your bad. by the way there are many forms/strains of marine ich and they dont all act the same. that being said good luck with your ich problem.

if you say so. your the one with the ich not me.

No. My tank does not have this parasite. And, by the way, they last few days in encycted form called tomonts.
The entire life cycle could be sped up with increased temperatures.
Anyway, here's an abstract from Andrew Trevor-Jones article on his website.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
What causes marine "Ich"?

Marine "Ich" is caused by a ciliated protozoan called Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951. Ciliates (Phylum Ciliophora) are one of the largest groups of protozoans and all posses cilia or compound ciliary structures for food acquisition or locomotion at some point in their life cycle. Of the some 7200 species that have been described, around one third are ecto- and endo- commensals and parasites (Ruppert and Barnes, 1994). C. irritans is an obligate ectoparasite (Dickerson and Clark, 1996) which means that it is an external parasite that needs the fish host to complete its life cycle. The name 'Marine "Ich"' comes from the fact that it is essentially the marine equivalent on Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet, 1876, or "Ich" for short. While the two species of ciliates have superficially similar life cycles and signs, they have been found to be only distantly related (Wright and Colorni, 2002) .

The life cycle of C. irritans

C. irritans has a four stage life cycle, as shown in Figure 1. The parasitic stage (theronts) is the one that results in the appearance of white spots all over the fish. The theronts burrow under the skin where they feed on body fluids and tissue debris. When the theronts first infect the fish they are small but grow as they feed and so the white spots are initially small but get larger as they mature. Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.
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Why do you question this information and think that it may be incorrect?

[rjs5134]

Zhenya,

Thats exactly what I was referring to. My only question is, "are lawmower(algae) blennies and eels sufficient hosts to continue the cycle. If they aren't, then I can leave them in the reef tank. If they are viable hosts, then they too need to be moved to the QT. My intention is to treat them with a slightly elevated temp and hyposalinity until the Marine Ich parasite is undetectable. This should eliminate the parasite from the reef tank as well. The QT will be maintained from this point forward for all new purchases, fish, corals, inverts etc. Based on what I've read, this should nearly eliminate Marine Ich from the primary reef tank.

Thanks for your help.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by rjs5134

Zhenya,

Thats exactly what I was referring to. My only question is, "are lawmower(algae) blennies and eels sufficient hosts to continue the cycle. If they aren't, then I can leave them in the reef tank. If they are viable hosts, then they too need to be moved to the QT. My intention is to treat them with a slightly elevated temp and hyposalinity until the Marine Ich parasite is undetectable. This should eliminate the parasite from the reef tank as well. The QT will be maintained from this point forward for all new purchases, fish, corals, inverts etc. Based on what I've read, this should nearly eliminate Marine Ich from the primary reef tank.

Thanks for your help.

Any fish could be infected and help continue life cycle of the parasite so I would personally recommend removing all fish and treat them in a separate tank(hospital/q-tank).
Leaving your tank fallow and rasing temperature may speed up the life cycle and in doing so speed up the treatment. I would however caution that it's better to be on a safe side and wait full 6 weeks or there abouts.

Here's an exellent exellent five part series of articles by Terry Bartelme, give them a read over as well.
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_1.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_2.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_3.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_4.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_5.html

[prow]

[quote=zhenya]No. My tank does not have this parasite. And, by the way, they last few days in encycted form called tomonts.
The entire life cycle could be sped up with increased temperatures.
Anyway, here's an abstract from Andrew Trevor-Jones article on his website.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
i went to that site and read this info you put out but you forgot to tell the rest like the cyst stage last about 28 day after breaking out they become tomonts then they have few days to find host the. each cyst contains thousands of soon to be tomonts that can lead to reinfect the the fish even in isolation. may not see any signs ever again but the parasite remains in small numbers. they say (trevor-jones) that the fishes immune system becomes strong enough to keep it from spreading causing infection but it can remain there just in small numbers. all this is from the site you quoted. they go on to say that the cyst does not develope until enviormintal trigers cause it to release. so if you take all fish out the parasite will not be in the tank if you leave the fish out long enough, a couple of months ,but the cycle can remain in the fish in isolation without you never knowing it and once back in the tank can spread. they also say that a fish that gets infected 2-3 times become immune or at least has a built in immunity to its effects(getting infected and and showing signs) but can still be a host. again from the site you quoted that is why i say be carefu about reports and info you get, people only put the part in that helps prove their point or what they are seeking to prove. myself included. you as well. in another article on the same site by the same author there they say that some fish like the hippo tang are just prone to it and even in lab conditions they have not been able to rid it of ich. check it this is info is from that site you gave as a refferance.
and i believe the guy has a hippo tang with ich. so the site you quoted says it maybe impossible to rid this fish of ich. humm.you say it is very easly done and give a reffeance that says it maybe impossible.( with the hippo tang). this is the point i was trying to make about getting reports and research. but no matter how you feel about it we both can agree that the best way to treat it is to increase the temp and decrease the salt right.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by prow

humm.you say it is very easly done and give a reffeance that says it maybe impossible.( with the hippo tang). this is the point i was trying to make about getting reports and research. but no matter how you feel about it we both can agree that the best way to treat it is to increase the temp and decrease the salt right.

Hmm, you lost me there, prow. What I said was that you can get your tank free of the parasite, I said nothing about curing any of the fish already infected( just that it needs to be done in a separate tank). Hyposalinity works well and is recommended by that very same website( and the author)that I mentioned earlier in my first post.

they say (trevor-jones) that the fishes immune system becomes strong enough to keep it from spreading causing infection but it can remain there just in small numbers

Show me where he;s saying this, please.Here's a quote from his website about Ich always being present in Marine tanks. As far as I can understand it it is a myth. Yes, some fish are more prone to being infected due to stress but stress is not the reason for the outbreaks.

Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?



There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.

C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.

If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present.

Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".

If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites.

If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present.

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.

Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.







Does stress cause "Ich"?



Stress and poor water conditions do not cause marine "Ich", although they will lower a fish's resistance to infection and impair their immune system. If C. irritans is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter what how stressed a fish may be, it cannot get infected. In a tank where parasites are present, stressed fish are more likely to show signs of "Ich" before more healthy fish, but the healthy fish are just as likely to become infected as the numbers of parasites increase. Those fish species that are less susceptible to "Ich" or those individuals that have an acquired immunity, may show no signs and may not get infected.

[prow]

[quote=zhenya]Hmm, you lost me there, prow. What I said was that you can get your tank free of the parasite, I said nothing about curing any of the fish already infected( just that it needs to be done in a separate tank). Hyposalinity works well and is recommended by that very same website( and the author)that I mentioned earlier in my first post.

huh. ok this started because i believe once a parasite is introduced into a tank (expecially with a hippo tang i learned) it is almost impossible to rid the tank using the same infected live stock. even if you isolate each fish for 2 mo. and they appear to be ich free. thats it. you believe different i think. but we both agree temp and salt are best treatments. i differ a little and would just try to increase the temp in the tank, as long as you dont have creatures that live in cold water, without isolating any of them. i just believe isolation causes extra unnecessary stress and may increase the infection and kill our fish before they start to recover. thats it. then there is the issue of, is it from the pacific or the mediterranean j/k.but best of luck and happy reefing

[rjs5134]

Alright then, rather than continue I'll remove all vertebrates including the eel for 8 weeks + and treat with hyposalinity and an elevated temp; maybe longer. Then I'll have my ich free environment.

Thanks guys

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by prow

it is almost impossible to rid the tank using the same infected live stock. even if you isolate each fish for 2 mo. and they appear to be ich free. thats it. you believe different i think.

Well, that is where you losing me.
You need to isolate ALL fish and treat them with hyposalinity(not each fish separately), this will kill the parasites that are present on them.
You must then keep your display tank fallow(free of fish) for 6 weeks, this will end parasite cycle and voila- you have a parasite fee tank.
After that you must quarantine all new comers for at least 6 weeks as well to ensure that you do not introduce infected fish to your tank.

Originally Posted by rjs5134

Alright then, rather than continue I'll remove all vertebrates including the eel for 8 weeks + and treat with hyposalinity and an elevated temp; maybe longer. Then I'll have my ich free environment.

If you remove all your fish and lower salinity in your hospital tank there is no need to elevate temperature there. You can raise temperature in your display tank to speed up the process of life cycle of the parasite in display tank if you wish. Good luck with your battle!

[rjs5134]

Gene,

That's exactly what my intentions are. I don't wish to isolate each seperately, just all in the QT. My original question was do I need to remove the eel from the display tank? Also the algae blenny, but at this point, they're both already in the QT. Ironically the only fish I haven't caught and moved yet is the hippo tang. I guess the next question is any ideas how to catch this elusive fellow? LOL

Thanks again

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by rjs5134

Gene,

That's exactly what my intentions are. I don't wish to isolate each seperately, just all in the QT. My original question was do I need to remove the eel from the display tank? Also the algae blenny, but at this point, they're both already in the QT. Ironically the only fish I haven't caught and moved yet is the hippo tang. I guess the next question is any ideas how to catch this elusive fellow? LOL

Thanks again

I don't think I expressed myself properly... when I said separately(in my reply to prow) I meant to say not one fish at the time but all the fish at the same time. Anyway, you understood me correctly...
About the hippo tang, if you can't catch him using fish trap then removing some rock is the only option, I think. I know it's tedious work and all but I think you don't have many options at this point.