[Reefland]

Hi Jason,

If I have any medication questions I know who to ask.

The Eheim is absolutely not necessary and would only provide you with additional current and a place for excessive waste to build which will lead to excessive nitrate. The liverock will provide more than enough area for bacteria colonies to develop and grow to meet your bio load (as long as you eventually don't over do the bio load). The important thing is to add bacteria to the tank initially and provide them the surface to continually live and the liverock has provided both.

In a nutshell, don't by the filter, the liverock and the protein skimemr will be plenty for your 30 gallon.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

However, the owner did tell me that I will always have trouble when adding fish if I don't add an additional filter to increase my bilogical filter.

Adding a remote biological filter (canister) to a system with live rock is not only unnecessary, it is counter productive.

He had a $250.00 Eheim (spelling?) he was prepared to sell me. It looked like a really good unit, and I understand the importance of a strong biological filter.

You don't need it.

He explained that the CPR Aquatics Bak-pak biofilter/protein skimmer I have (which they sold me 8 weeks ago!) really won't establish a stong enough bacteria population to adequately handle new additions to the tank.

All you need is the skimmer function of that thing. You don't really need any biofilter capacity out of it. The bacterial populations in your live rock (and sand bed, if you have one) will handle ALL of your biological filtration needs. Remote bio filters are a waste of money.

Do you all agree?

No. He's just trying to make money by selling you everything on the shelf.

Wouldn't enough LR do the same thing?

Yes. Live rock and a decent protein skimmer will handle all of your filtration needs.


P.S. -- Do yourself a favor and in the future, disregard everything that LFS owner has to say unless he's talking about something other than reefkeeping.

[saltjunkie]

P.S. -- Do yourself a favor and in the future, disregard everything that LFS owner has to say unless he's talking about something other than reefkeeping.

how true! lol

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Is this your unit?

"The Cyclone BAK-PAK™2 Bio-Filter is the second generation external, hang on the back, combination Protein Skimmer and Biological Filtration unit from CPR. The BAK-PAK™ 2, like the original, is designed for tank sizes up to 60 gallons, but multiple units may be used for larger aquariums. Water first enters the Protein Skimmer column from the aquarium. It then flows through the biological chamber filled with Bio-Bale™ filtration media before returning to the aquarium.
The Protein Skimmer is driven by a rejuvenation venturi powerhead. Bubble dwell time is increased by the counter-current flow in the skimmer column. The quality of the foam collected can be controlled by raising and lowering the collection cup.

To set up the BAK-PAK™ 2, hang the unit behind the aquarium and plug it in -- that's it. New improved design incorporates an easy to clean intake tube and an enclosed, directional outflow to reduce salt splash and micro-bubbles entering into tank. The new design also uses a smoke colored break-resistant collection cup."

If it is, then according to the units specs it should be large enough to handle your bio-load in your 30 gallon system.

Between your LR, substrate and Biological Filtration system you should be in good shape. Personally, I believe that the best system is one that is open and balanced naturally.

The key now is to add inhabitants slowly into your tank to allow for the nitrifying bacteria to adjust to the increase load placed on it. At least 2 week intervals between stocking and keep testing after adding to insure there are no "surprises".

2-3 times a week, I do run a Vortex Diatom Filter - it is used to "Polish" my water off and NOT for Bio-logical filtering

After reading your posts I have serious questions about your LFS. They appear to be wanting to sell you anything they can, that might not be what you need or want. I suggest you start looking for someone else to handle your marine keeping needs.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Yes, that is the unit I have. It seems to work pretty well. A little noisy, but we've gotten used to it. Apparently they make some sort of diffuser that can be attached to quiet it up a bit. Not too important to me.

Yeah, I agree the particular fish store I spoke of in my last post seems to be more interested in sales then solid advice. I've worked in retail for many years, and know the temptation to "sell" can be strong. The owner has a beautiful store with the greatest selection of fish...but all that comes with a price tag. The nice thing about a forum like this is that no one seems to really have a financial incentive when giving advice. I have many LFS options in central MA.

Sooooo. Here's my next question. What is my "fish limit" with 30 gallons? In freshwater we talk about 1 inch of fish per gallon, but that is quite flexible based upon things like water changes, live plants, and equipment.

I'm not interested in stocking it to the limit. Two or three small interesting fish would be fine if the tank can handle it. Any suggestions?

Thanks again to all!!

-Jason

[Ninong]

How many fish you could keep in a 30-gal depends on the mature size of the fish and their behavioral patterns. I have an orchid dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani) and it would make an ideal fish for a 30-gal tank provided you are careful to not place any similar shaped fishes with it in a tank of that size. My dottyback gets along fine with my two Cirrhilabrus species fairy wrasses but they're much larger than him.

I have a gorgeous Centropyge bispinosa (coral beauty angelfish) and that would make a great fish for a 30-gal tank. I also have a Siganus vulpinus (foxface rabbitfish) but even though it is not an aggressive fish, it's too large for a 30-gal tank. In fact, my 120-gal tank is probably on the small side for this particular fish.

You should not try to keep any tangs in a 30-gal tank. It's too small. Some people recommend fairy wrasses for 30-gal tanks but my experience with mine is that they are much too active for anything that small. Some of the clownfish species are suitable for a 30-gal tank. Just avoid the larger species. Amphiprion ocellaris or A. percula would be fine as long as you don't try to include an anemone. I wouldn't suggest any anemone for a tank of that size.

There are lots of good choices for a 30-gal tank as long as you use common sense and avoid fish that get too large or too aggressive.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Jason, looking at the photo of your tank. It appears as though it is a Vertical Tank, instead of a Horizontal Tank. This will limit the amount and type of fish you can place in it.

Saltwater fish require a great deal more space than freshwater fish.

Understanding that there are fish that prefer different locations in the reef, you have those that are open swimmers that prefer the open water above your LR. I might suggest Blue or Green Chromis (Chromis caerulea & Chromis cynea). They are considered generally peaceful. They will enjoy swimming around and above the LR.

Then for the middle of your tank around your LR you already have a anenome fish. I would suggest maybe one more fish. A Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto) will do nicely. then at the bottom I would go with maybe 1 or 2 gobies or blennies. You then can fill in with some inverts (Cleaner Shrimp, Snails and Feather Duster). These are all small and generally peaceful inhabitants and it will keep your fish count between 5-6.

Great part is that its up to you, the main point is keep them small and after each addition test your water and make sure that it does not go up on your ammonia levels.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Yeah, I agree the particular fish store I spoke of in my last post seems to be more interested in sales then solid advice. I've worked in retail for many years, and know the temptation to "sell" can be strong. The owner has a beautiful store with the greatest selection of fish...but all that comes with a price tag. The nice thing about a forum like this is that no one seems to really have a financial incentive when giving advice. I have many LFS options in central MA.

I would not completely rule them out. As stated before ignore what they tell you when it comes to reef keeping. As far as marine fish, inverts and corals, I am very piticular as to who I do business with. Questions I would ask any LFS before buying would be.

1. Do you quarintine your new stock before putting them out on the retail floor?
2. Does your suppliers catch their stock naturally (by net). If they say no thats a BIG RED FLAG then I ask by what means. Cyinade or Explosives at this point I will refuse to purchase from them and I tell them I do not support suppliers that use these means.

I also spend time just looking through all the tanks to see what kind of condition their stock are in. If I see dead or dying fish again that brings up Red Flags about how well the store is monitoring there tanks.

Bottom line if you feel comortable with them and how they handle their stock by all means purchase from them.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Thanks for the fish suggestions!!! I've looked around at various pictures of the species that have been mentioned and think I would like to go with one each of the following (assuming I can find them and they are compatible):

Coral beauty angelfish [Centropyge bispinosa]
Royal Gramma [Gramma loreto]
Yellow Watchman goby [Cryptocentrus cinctus]
Scooter blenny [Neosynchiropus ocellatus]

At present that tank just has 1 common clownfish and a small variety of snails.

Now, is there a "best" way to add a group of fish like this, in terms of order? I know to add them slowly [maybe 2-4 weeks apart] and test the water regularly.

Also, if I think I am going to want more LR, can I safely add it later on, as long as it is fully cured? I just don't know yet how "full" of rock I want the tank to look.

Thanks as usual!!

-Jason

[Poseidon]

Hi Jason, great choices! except the "scooter blenny", it is not actually a blenny, but a dragonette I believe. That are pretty hard to keep, like the Mandarins, these fish also require LOTS and LOTS of live rock to feed on. So skip that one. As far as the order goes, I would do the Goby first, the Angel second and the Gramma third. The Gramma and the goby are similarly shaped fish, and they both stay near the bottom, it is POSSIBLE that you may have conflicts between those two. Maybe a Pseudochromis would be a better choice instead of the gramma? I like the P. Doiti, and of course Ninong has a GORGEOUS Orchid one!

Yes you can add fully cured rock to the tank, but I would go slow just in case it is not as CURED as the LFS states. No more then 4 pounds at a time, maybe less if you can find small rocks to build up slowly. Remember slower is BETTER in this hobby!

[Fish R.Ph.]

okay...the blenny is out. Thanks!!! I'm going to begin calling around for some Goby's to look at today. Then after several weeks I'll look for the Angel.

The Orchid is really cool looking, but the aggression scares me a bit. I figured it would be more a threat to the Goby than the Gramma. But if you think the Orchid would be safe, I will keep it on my list instead of the Gramma.

I couldn't find anything out about the Doiti you mentioned (pictures, info, etc). Are they less aggressive? I really like the looks of a P. paccagnella too, but don't know if it is compatable. If I start with the Goby, and then go to the Angel, it gives me plenty of time to think about the last addition.

I got a surpise last night. I have 3 Turbo snails in my 30 gallon tank now. They do a really good job, and I don't really have anything for them to knock over. But last night ONE CRAWLED INTO THE RETURN PIPE OF MY PROTEINE SKIMMER (while it was running!) . I was afraid it would totally block the return flow and I would end up with an overflow situation. I reached in and gently pulled him out. How can I prevent this from happening again? Do they make a grid to fit over the outlet of these things?

By the way, this brings up something else. Do you have any recommendations for books for beginners that explain equipment, loops, lighting, aquarium plumbing, pumps, sumps, flow, etc. I'm afraid I must admit I am TOTALLY LOST when reading many of the posts about such things. Many of the book recommendations I've seen talk mostly about fish species, etc. I see pics with plumbing and wires going everywhere and I haven't a clue what most of that is all about....but I really want to learn!

As usual, very helpful info!!

-Jason

[Poseidon]

Saltwater fish are ALL somewhat aggressive. THings to remember, you can RARELY get away with 2 of the same species (except some clowns and "firefish"). You can not have 2 fish that look the same as far as color and body type, like trying to put 2 different species of Pseudochromis together.

I think the orchid is the least aggressive of the Pseudo's, but it will also decimate your bristleworm population. Even Ninong has lost several, large worms to his Orchid, I am sure he still has some worms in his tank though!

Here is a not so good picture of my P. Doiti:



Sorry I have no experience with P. paccagnella, but I will take a look around.

I was playing with Photoshop on that picture.

I have some plastic netting type stuff that came with my CPR overflow. I have no idea where to get it though, you may want to try some "eggcrate" from Home Depot or Lowes, it is what plastic squares used in commercial light fixtures. We use it a LOT in this hobby, for all kinds of things. Here is a shelf I built for my live rock, to make it look like I had more then I did:



I wish I had a "how to" book for the sumps and such, but I have not seen one of those yet. I am afraid the boards are the best place for that. Really it is not as hard as it seems, a sump is simply a place to store things like your heater, skimmer, and other things you don't want in your display tank (Like Macro algae). A sump also increases the total system volume, making for a more stable tank. The more water you have the SLOWER things can go wrong, think of it this way if you were to add 1 Tablespoon of Calcium Hydroxide to Kevins 557, do you think anything would notice? Now add that same Tablespoon to your 30 gallon, you would have a MAJOR pH spike and could lose some livestock.

In operation a sump is complex looking but simple to set up, have you seen one in person yet? That will help quite a bit, a big point to remember is to make sure water can flow faster to the sump then back to your tank. That way the water level is much easier to control in the display, you just set the overflow for a particular height and let it run.

Here is a pic of the surface of my 90:



You can see the water coming from the PVC, and then falling into the overflow in the lower right corner. This creates the circulation for the sump water. Also remember when you use a sump and water evaporates, it lowers the level of water in the sump, your display will remain at the same water level (the water will still need to be replaced as normal though, or else the salinity will increase) that is another plus as far as aesthetics (sp?) are concerned.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

I little trick to help reduce the aggession of some species - Like damsels they are territorial by changing the landscape of your display aka moving your LR around and re-arranging it will cuase them to be less aggressive.

Mo my Blue Finned Damsel wanted to harress any new addition to the community - so I move my LR around and disrupt him and he now accepts the new additions very nicely.

On the inlet for your skimmer - they do make caps to prevent fish and in your case snails form venturing - check your parts list and available options from the company that made your Skimmer. They should have an attachment for it - if not try a good LFS that keeps replacement parts for skimmers and such they might have something that would work, but try your manufacturer 1st

On equipment - I have found hanging around LFS and speaking to people such as on this board are a great source for the novice. Heck I been in this for 30 years and everytime I come here I learn something new that someone else is trying or have done that I can apply to my setup

To be a reef keeper you need to out think the fish LOL

[Fish R.Ph.]

Thanks for the advice on the outlet pipe issue. I checked the manufacturers web site. They don't appear to make a product, but I left a question on their bulletin board. Waiting for a reply.

In the mean time, the LFS I went to had heard of that issue before, had seen it happen where a clownfish actually go caught in the pipe and caused a real problem! He gave me some of that eggcrate stuff for now.

Anyway, they were also the only place around that had a watchman goby (Cryptocentrus cinctus)...but he was very small. He doesn't seem to have the same bulgy eyes I've seen in most pictures of this species. Also, no spots. I like him none the less . I just want to take care of him right.



The above picture is a bit fuzzy. But anyone have any thoughts on whether he really is a watchman? He is very tiny, maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch.

Also, does anyone have any advice on a decent "weekend feeder"? I'm going to be away for about 2 days soon.

By the way, should a question like this be asked on a new thread since it is so far removed from my initial question?


-Jason

[Poseidon]

Boy it doesn't look like one to me, but since it is so small it is really hard to tell. As far as the feeder goes, I wouldn't worry. 2 days is not enough time to casue any harm, as long as he is eating well before you go.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Agreed it looks like from the photo it probable is there are several variations to the watchman goby (yellow, diamond, spotted) the head throws me a little but it looks like its perched the way a goby would. Remember gobys and blennies are going to be very small inhabitants to your tank. At maturity they will only get about 2.4 inches in size

2-3 days will not harm your fish. I'm getting ready to head out of for 11 days. I did it last year and the fish were fine. Remember most are caught in the wild and are used to not being spoon fed everyday. So its not going to bother them at all.

[Fish R.Ph.]

After doing some more research, viewing photos, and reviewing articles, I believe what I actually purchased from my LFS is what is known commonly as a yellow coral goby (Gobiodon okinawae). He will only grow to about an inch, unlike the watchman gobies (AKA Yellow Prawn Goby) (Cryptocentrus cinctus) which grow to about 3 inches sometimes.

The research was fun, as I learned a lot about the HUGE Goby family, including that the term Goby is from the Latin Gobius meaning a fish of little value or worth! I have not yet shared that information with my Goby (Mr. G), as I'm sure he would be as insulted as I was!

Anyway, thanks to you all for giving me a great start in this hobby. I'm sure I will have lots more questions shortly. In the next week or two I shall begin my search for the perfect Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosa). And THIS TIME I will go with the Latin name in hand!

Thanks again!
-Jason