[Fish R.Ph.]

Hi All,

This is my first "official" post, not including my 'getting to know you' statement. I have a question about cycling. I have read all the other posts I could find and did not see this situation exactly.

I started my 30 gallon tank about 6 weeks ago. Substrate is about 10 pounds Aragonite and 10 pounds live sand. I've used 'instant ocean' for salt. I am running a CPR Aquatics BAK-PAK Protein Skimmer + Biological Filter which seems to be running well (I get a dark brown skimmate which I empty daily or evey other day).

Then I did a bad thing. On the advice of my LFS I started my cycle with a tank raised clown (go ahead, yell at me, I know this was wrong ). I have since confessed... (Let he who is without sin throw the first stone!)

In addition to the clown I have about 15 pounds of Live Rock.

My question is this. My ammonia levels and nitrite levels have been about the same (very low) for the last 5 weeks (when I started testing). Amonia < 0.5 and Nitrite < 0.3. No detectible Nitrates to speak of (maybe in the 0-5 range on my kit). pH is 8.2, temp is 80, and SG 1.022.

What is up with my cycle? Am I cycling? Have I stalled? I've seen no peaks or real changes. By the way, the clown seems very happy and healthy. I have been browsing your forums nearly every day...you guys all seem to have great advice! Thanks for your patience with a newbie!

[Poseidon]

That does sound strange! There should be a definate rise and fall of the NH3, NO2, and then to the NO3. My first suspicion is the test kit, maybe take a sample to the LFS to compare readings, if they are the same then we can move on to step two...

By the way, WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

[Fish R.Ph.]

[quote=Poseidon]That does sound strange! There should be a definate rise and fall of the NH3, NO2, and then to the NO3. My first suspicion is the test kit, maybe take a sample to the LFS to compare readings, if they are the same then we can move on to step two...

By the way, WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

On your advice I did go to my LFS and he tested my water. Good Advice! On his tests my ammonia and nitrites were zero and nitrates about 20. He figures the cycle is complete and I'm ready to add some fish. I guess I need to get some better tests. I picked up about another 5 pounds of fully cured live rock while I was there.

For reference, the brand of tests I was using are:
Nitrates: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc (2 part test)
Nitrites: Tetra Test (2 part test)
Ammonia: Aquarium Pharmaceutical, Inc. (1 part test)

Any suggestions on better brands?

Also, any thoughts on a simple 'clean-up' crew for a beginner like myself?

[Poseidon]

GREAT!!!

As far as test kits go, the cheap ones are pretty much useless as you can see. Salifert makes some of the best. I have used Red Sea in the past and though not as good as Salifert they were better then the other cheap ones. Also Seachem makes a decent line of test kits, but they are not very user friendly.

For clean up crews I use STRICTLY SNAILS!!! (see my sig?)

I would suggest a good mix, maybe 20 Astrea, 10 Cerith, and a little later 15-20 Nassarious Vibex. You may want to include 1 or 2 Mexican Turbo's but be careful they get rather LARGE and will knock things over. IF you REALLY REALLY have to get crabs DO NOT GET the blueleg hermits! THey are by far the most aggressive "reef safe" hermit out there. I did have some mexican dwarf hermits for a while, and they were much better, but still ate snails! Remember those claws are pointy for a reason!

[Fish R.Ph.]

okay...I'm upgrading my test kits for sure. The LFS had one that seemed to test for 4-5 different parameters all on one strip! That looked very convenient.

As for the snails, do I need to do anything else special to the water to keep them happy and healthy? Other than eating my algae, will they need another food source?

What about a shrimp? Or are they not possible in a FOWLR setup like mine? I know...I really need to get a good book. That's also on my "to-do" list.

I checked out the sponsor pages for a good deal on the snails, but shipping is so expensive. I think I'll check around locally. Thanks again for the great advice!!
-Jason

[Poseidon]

Snails will find all the food they need, provided the light is right for the algae to grow.

Shrimp would be fine, my friends have a couple of skunk cleaners, and they eat flake food from their hands!

You are right, shipping is expensive! Unless you go to www.reeftopia.com and spend more then $125, then it is FREE! But that would be WAY TO MANY snails for your 30 gallon! Maybe find some others to go in with you. Maybe 1/3's would work....

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

In addition to the clown I have about 15 pounds of Live Rock.

My question is this. My ammonia levels and nitrite levels have been about the same (very low) for the last 5 weeks (when I started testing). Amonia < 0.5 and Nitrite < 0.3. No detectible Nitrates to speak of (maybe in the 0-5 range on my kit). pH is 8.2, temp is 80, and SG 1.022.

What is up with my cycle? Am I cycling? Have I stalled? I've seen no peaks or real changes.

If you started with fully cured live rock, you probably had unnoticeable ammonia and nitrite "spikes." The ammonia is produced by die-off in the uncured live rock and by the bodily functions of your one clownfish. Once the ammonia is produced in a brand new tank, the appropriate ammonia processing bacteria will begin to reproduce to process the ammonia into nitrite. Then the nitrite processing bacteria will begin to grow to process the nitrite into nitrate. Consumption of the ammonia "spike" is what produces the nitrite "spike." Consumption of the nitrite "spike" is what produces the nitrate spike. Whether these are truly spikes or not depends on the amount of available ammonia to begin with. You may have had very little ammonia to begin with and thus you had a very gentle cycle. Eventually things will equilibrate once sufficient nitrifying and denitrifying bacterial populations are established. It is important during the first few months that you add new inhabitants slowly so as to allow time for the system to adjust to each new bioload addition.

Good luck!

[Michelle]

We have placed a few clean-up crew orders with www.etropicals.com using the Build Your Own kit. If you order $60 worth of clean-up crew then shipping is free.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

The way I was taught many year ago was in order to help the cycling process is to get some seed Substrate from an established aquarium typically your LFS can do this, place in a damsel (I have used yellow tailed) with great success. Completely cover the aquarium for approx 10-14 days.

Due your normal feeding and this begin to start to bio-load breakdown after 14 days un-cover the aquarium but leave the lights off until the cycling process is complete. By this time is when I usually will start seeing a spike in my nitrates, followed in turn by a spike in the nitrites and finally Amonia levels. Here is where people disagree is in doing paritial water changes. Some say do and some say don't. Me I wait till the cycling ends typically 6-8 weeks. The start with my weekly water changes

As Poseidon has suggested invest in good test kits I have used Seachem for many years and found them to meet my needs with respect to giving a good accurate reading.

I usually hold off on adding snails until the cycle completes and the lights are turned on and very slowing start adding your fish 1 maybe within a 2 week cycle this will allow for the bio-load to balance it self out with the increase of waste created by the new additions

Hope this helps

[Fish R.Ph.]

First, thanks to all of you for your advice! Very helpful!

Second, I'll tell you what I've done (so others can learn from my mistake, and the rest of you can yell at me and feel better about yourselves )

After having my water tested by the LFS and being told that the cycle was finished (see above discussion), I bought some more LR (about 5 pounds). Then I waited a week and went to another LFS yesterday to buy some snails (12 for now) and a cleaner shrimp (they just look so cool!).

I put them in the tank, watched them for about 30 minutes, and went out to mow the lawn. About 2 hours later I came in....shrimp was dead.

Ahhhhh! I called this LFS and he told me to bring in a water sample. He tested it and said the tank was NOT cycled yet. Nitrites were zero, but ammonia was maybe 2-3ppm, and nitrates were present, but not up very high. This combo, he explained, was toxic.

So, I really blew it big time in several ways.
1) I trusted the last LFS test which told me I was cycled and/or
2) I failed to appreciate what the addition of more LR would do to my cycle and
3) I didn't test my water again myself (I assumed my tests were garbage...see above discussion). I hadn't bought the Salifert or Seachem tests yet.

Anyway, the advice I was given was to wait another 10 days and see if the cycle is complete.

Any feedback for me? Quit now? Maybe I should change my screen name to "shrimp killer" for a few months just to punish myself....

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

I bought some more LR (about 5 pounds). Then I waited a week...

Was this live rock fully cured when you bought it? It's OK to add fully cured live rock to an existing tank if it is handled with care but it's not OK to add live rock that is not fully cured to an existing tank.

Ahhhhh! I called this LFS and he told me to bring in a water sample. He tested it and said the tank was NOT cycled yet. Nitrites were zero, but ammonia was maybe 2-3ppm, and nitrates were present, but not up very high.

There is no way you should have ammonia as high as 2-3 ppm some six or seven weeks after setting up your tank unless you added some really messy live rock. If your present ammonia reading is really that high, then it could take another three to six weeks for your tank to cycle this ammonia. Exactly how long it takes depends on how long it takes whatever it is that is dying to finish dying off.

1) I trusted the last LFS test which told me I was cycled and/or
2) I failed to appreciate what the addition of more LR would do to my cycle and

Fully cured live rock, especially a small amount like that, can be safely added to an existing system. Uncured live rock should never be added to an existing system.

Anyway, the advice I was given was to wait another 10 days and see if the cycle is complete.

If your ammonia is 2-3 ppm right now, it will probably take longer than 10 days for the cycle to be complete.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Agreed with Ninong find out 1st if it is cured or uncured LR (uncured needs to be cured prior to putting into established tank) there are several good articles around the net about how to cure un-cured LR.

Un-Cured will through off your schedule for cycling by at least a month or more while it goes through its curing process.

Your ammonia levels definitely caused the death of your shrimp. My suggestion stay don't put the cart infront of the horse. meaning stay basic 2-3 hardy fish (Damsels are very good and inexpensive) that can take the stress levels that your tank is going through. If your ammonia stay this high your LR has not cured yet - may want to consider to some paritial water changes to help keep those levels down during this timeline.

Most importantly don't get frustrated and don't RUSH to add "Cool" critters into your system until it has cycled. It takes time there is not time set in stone that says 6 weeks and is done. Keep doing your tests on a daily basis and eventually it will cycle. Then begin adding SLOWLY into it and keep testing and doing your weekly water changes. A conditioned system may take up to a year to achieve. BE PATIENT

Most people don't understand they have a responsibility to these little critters to provide them the best eco-environment we can. Their life depends on us.

Here is a link to about.com for Saltwater Live Rock good place to get info
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/fil...a/aa111901.htm

[Fish R.Ph.]

I just called the LFS that sold me the LR (the same place that also tested my water and assured me my cycle was done) and they say the rock was fully cured.

I only had to travel about 30 minutes to get the rock home, so I wouldn't expect a huge die off in that amount of time.

So I guess I'm just not sure why the ammonia spike. But your advice is well taken, and I just need to wait now, keep testing, and not make the same mistake again.

Thanks for the help!
-Jason

[Poseidon]

The hardest part of this hobby, is the WAITING!!! I know it sounds trite, but you really gotta just WAIT!

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

The hardest part of this hobby, is the WAITING!!! I know it sounds trite, but you really gotta just WAIT!

I agree 100% - its all these cool fish, inverts and corals that grabbed our attention in the 1st place and no matter how old or young - experienced or newbie. WE WANT THEM NOW. I'm just as quilty as the next person.

Patience really is a virtue because we definitey are not born with it.

Good Luck Jason you'll get there - we all started the same way - will most of us anyway

[Fish R.Ph.]

Hi folks,

I'm bringing some water from my tank to have it tested again today or tomorrow. I want to be sure things are still moving in the right direction after my experience with the shrimp (see above). Hopefully they will carry some quality test kits that I can purchase and use with more confidence.

I found this little creature peaking out of my LR last night. Any thoughts? A bristle worm maybe? Sorry the pic is a bit blurry. I'm much better at pharmacy than photography.

THANKS!

P.S. Anyone know how I can get my dumb mug shot out of the "Full Tanks" gallery and just into my personal profile. Computers...Ahhhhhh!

Jason

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

I found this little creature peaking out of my LR last night. Any thoughts? A bristle worm maybe? Sorry the pic is a bit blurry. I'm much better at pharmacy than photography.

THANKS!

That appears to be a beneficial bristleworm. I have lots of them.

http://www.reefland.com/forum/attach...achmentid=4474

They're scavengers.

[Poseidon]

Yup I concur!

And I moved your picture, into Member Galleries.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

P.S. Anyone know how I can get my dumb mug shot out of the "Full Tanks" gallery and just into my personal profile. Computers...Ahhhhhh!

Go to your User CP Panel located at the top right next to forum home click on it and it will take you to your Control Panel - from there if your a contributing member you will be allowed "Avatar" rights. Thats where you can place your "Top Ten Mug Shot" and show up along side your name on the left of your posts.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Hello again,

After a trip out to another LFS tonight, they tested my water and told me my ammonia and nitrite are zero. Nitrates are pretty low too, but consistent (they say) with the low bioload of just 1 lonely clown.

However, the owner did tell me that I will always have trouble when adding fish if I don't add an additional filter to increase my bilogical filter. He had a $250.00 Eheim (spelling?) he was prepared to sell me. It looked like a really good unit, and I understand the importance of a strong biological filter. However, what opinions do you guys have on the need for an additional filter for a 30 gallon FOWLR system.

He explained that the CPR Aquatics Bak-pak biofilter/protein skimmer I have (which they sold me 8 weeks ago!) really won't establish a stong enough bacteria population to adequately handle new additions to the tank.

Do you all agree? Wouldn't enough LR do the same thing? Or is that really not sufficient. Are there other ways to increase my biological filter? More live sand? I'll certainly buy what I have to buy, but I do want to conserve space and limit noise wherever possible too.

Thanks again for you patience with a new guy! If anyone has any questions you want to ask me about, say, drug interactions between Lipitor and Grapefruit...I'd be happy to help out!

-Jason