What one says over another....

Green Marine · 01-26-2006, 08:52 PM

Ok I had questions on an old thread, but it didnt seem very popular so I am making another with new questions i have. I am in the process of setting up my 35 gallon. I was wondering if a valentini puffer, flame hawk, and a dwarf lion sound ok? Too crowded or not? Live rock only. Hopefully no lfs will entice me to buy corals because im really bad about going to a fish store for one thing and coming back with more...hehe. Now I just recently dicovered something that confuses me indefinately. On liveaquaria.com it says that the hawkfish was relatively easy to keep and that it had great personality and it was fine for a 30 and up gallon sized tank. Then another site (fishindex.com) said it was only big enough for a 50, but also another site said that it was extremly difficult to keep and they dont adapt well to captivity.....now who exactly am i supposed to go with on this here??? Thats what you wonderful people are for.

Also can please someone tell me if a saddle valentini puffer that has been raised with a niger trigger fish be ok with a dwarf lion. It said on a couple sites that the puffer didnt like big finned fish. And i finally got the 2213 ehiem up and runnen so my tanks in business. Just gotta wait it out

Thanks for all help

**Ninong** · 01-28-2006, 01:32 PM

Here are a few facts and then you can make up your own mind:

The Flame Hawkfish (Neocirrhites armatus) attains a maximum of length of about 3.5". It's natural diet consists mainly of crabs and shrimp. In captivity it will eat these as well as snails, which it will rip from their shells. It is also a threat to eat small fishes. They have great personalities and a lot of people like them. Just be aware of what they eat and don't put any fish smaller than them in the tank.

The Saddled Toby (aka Valentini Puffer) (Canthigaster valentini), reaches a maximum length of about 3.9". It's natural diet consists of green, red and brown algae and a wide range of invertebrates, including tunicates, corals, crustaceans, polychaete worms, echinoderms and sponges. All tobies produce tetradotoxin in the skin and viscera that makes them unpalatable to most predators.

You didn't say which of the two different dward lionfish (Dendrochirus brachypterus or D. zebra) you're thinking of getting but both are similar in that their maximum length is between 6.5" to 7" and both eat shrimp and crabs and sometimes small fish.

I don't consider a 35-gal tank large enough for any of those fish but that's my personal opinion. Feel free to seek other opinions on that aspect.

Green Marine · 01-31-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't consider a 35-gal tank large enough for any of those fish but that's my personal opinion. Feel free to seek other opinions on that aspect.

Does anyone else agree with that?? Ive checked more than a couple sites and each one said that the minimum tank size for each one of those fish is 30 gallons. Not to mention I did recently email livaquaria's customer service, and the replied saying that each of these species should be fine togethor. Im still clueless....can i get some more opinions please??? Thanks

**Poseidon** · 01-31-2006, 12:16 PM

I agree with Ninong, a 35 gallon tank is pretty small. I would say clownfish, some gobies, cardinals those would all be fine.

Green Marine · 01-31-2006, 04:48 PM

ahhh really??? Not even if one was kept and no more??

**Ninong** · 01-31-2006, 07:00 PM

You will find that the people who sell fish (i.e., LiveAquaria.com) have a tendency to post smaller minimum tank sizes that most other references, which is understandable but self-serving.

In the case of the Dwarf Lionfish that you are considering, Live Aquaria gives a minimum tank size of 30 gallons but Robert Fenner (www.wetwebmedia.com) says that he wouldn't put one in anything smaller than a 40-gal tank.

And keep in mind that when you see "minimum" tank size recommendations, those are bare minimum sizes and not anything close to ideal sizes. I think you could keep the three fish you are considering in a 50-gal or larger tank without problems.

The fish you are interested in are not fish that would be good choices for a 35-gal tank. There are lots of possibilities that would be much better choices for that size tank. Clownfish would do well but even with clownfish, the recommended minimum size for the larger species is 40 gallons. In general, you would be better to stick with smaller species, such as the popular Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto) or perhaps an Orchid Dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani). Even with those, most people would draw the line at 40 gallons as the minimum. The same thing goes for any of the dwarf angelfish (Centropyge species) -- a 40-gal is usually considered minimum.

**Poseidon** · 01-31-2006, 07:43 PM

When I worked @ a LFS, I used to recommend 50+ gallons as the MINIMUM for a salt water tank. I still believe that today, even in the age of Nano's, 50+ for beginners, leave the small stuff to the people who know what to expect.

CSeaSee · 01-31-2006, 10:32 PM

I second the advice of getting a bigger tank or smaller fish... everything that has been said is good advice. Don't just think about the physical well-being of the fish. Consider humane treatment as well. Would you like to spend the rest of your life IN a studio apartment?

Green Marine · 02-01-2006, 10:43 AM

Well I do understand the humane part, but it just seems like these species of fish your talking about are extremely small. When i say small i meen barely larger than damsels. My tank now has 1 damsel to get it started, and not only does my tank have that emptyness feeling when you look at it, but i never see my damsel other than when i feed it. Im looking for a species that is more outgoing with personality, but at the same time would be really neat to have an bring a more filling look to my tank. I have seen all these fish that your talking about Nenong at the LFS and they are quite small.If i were to get these fish, how many would I be able to have? So if i did go with smaller species would appear that I have a big tank with a couple of minnows (wich i understand they are not)

? Isnt the rule 1 inch of fish for every 5 gallons? Or is that Wrong? If this is right I believe 7 inches of fish would be my limit. Im really trying to get the most out of my tanks without it looking so....boring is the word I think im looking for. Can somone give me a fish list example that would be great choice for my size tank. Keep in mind I want FOWLR....I really want to stay away from the reef.

CSeaSee · 02-01-2006, 05:14 PM

The "inches per gallon" rule is useless because one seven-inch lionfish will produce craploads more waste than seven one-ich chromis... Your tank will look just fine with a few fish in it. It will look ridiculous with tons of fish fighting and harming each other all the time and you will get tired of replacing dead, expensive fish.

Steven Pro · 02-02-2006, 07:52 AM

I don't have a problem with the flame hawkfish in the 35, but I agree that the rest would be problematic in such a small aquarium.

Green Marine · 02-02-2006, 12:15 PM

Are you saying that you do have a hawkfish in a 35?

Steven Pro · 02-03-2006, 08:08 AM

No, I was just saying that personally I don't forsee a problem with a hawkfish in a 35. They don't swim over vast distances like angelfish or tangs do and it doesn't grow so large that it would negatively impact water quality.

almostdiva · 02-03-2006, 10:44 AM

You could do the hawk. You could also MAYBE do a Fu Manch lion. They only get to like 4 inches, and they don't move much either. But I would not put the hawk and the valentini or the Fu Manchu and the valentini in a 35G.

If you go w the Fu Manchu, you will have to be carefull about what else you put in with him. They will eat damsels, small clowns, gobies and anything they can fit in their mouth. You would have that problem with the other lions, too. Fu Manchus do have great personalities though. Check them out.

A bigger tank in the long run, if these are the fish you are attracted to, would be ideal.

Rebecca

Green Marine · 02-03-2006, 12:17 PM

Thanks almostdiva. Well you are right these are the fish Im attracted to. When you say bigger tank, does a 55 sound big enough. I saw a good deal at the thrift store for one of those for like 50$. Iv got the filter and powerheads for it. Yeah but I need to check out that fu manch lion. Iv never heard of those. Thanks alot.

Also why is there questioning about the Valentini going in the 35 by itself? Is it a size matter? Because of so I noticed that the valentini only grows to about 4 ''. Also it is to my understanding that they grow very slow. Or is there another problem that i dont know about? Maybe its because it swims in a large area? I know now that the hawk and the Fu Manchu lion dont swim quite as much. Thanks all.

01-26-2006, 08:52 PM	#1
Green Marine Just Moved In Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Spring, Tx Posts: 46	What one says over another.... Ok I had questions on an old thread, but it didnt seem very popular so I am making another with new questions i have. I am in the process of setting up my 35 gallon. I was wondering if a valentini puffer, flame hawk, and a dwarf lion sound ok? Too crowded or not? Live rock only. Hopefully no lfs will entice me to buy corals because im really bad about going to a fish store for one thing and coming back with more...hehe. Now I just recently dicovered something that confuses me indefinately. On liveaquaria.com it says that the hawkfish was relatively easy to keep and that it had great personality and it was fine for a 30 and up gallon sized tank. Then another site (fishindex.com) said it was only big enough for a 50, but also another site said that it was extremly difficult to keep and they dont adapt well to captivity.....now who exactly am i supposed to go with on this here??? Thats what you wonderful people are for. Also can please someone tell me if a saddle valentini puffer that has been raised with a niger trigger fish be ok with a dwarf lion. It said on a couple sites that the puffer didnt like big finned fish. And i finally got the 2213 ehiem up and runnen so my tanks in business. Just gotta wait it out Thanks for all help

01-28-2006, 01:32 PM	#2
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 20,317	Here are a few facts and then you can make up your own mind: The Flame Hawkfish (Neocirrhites armatus) attains a maximum of length of about 3.5". It's natural diet consists mainly of crabs and shrimp. In captivity it will eat these as well as snails, which it will rip from their shells. It is also a threat to eat small fishes. They have great personalities and a lot of people like them. Just be aware of what they eat and don't put any fish smaller than them in the tank. The Saddled Toby (aka Valentini Puffer) (Canthigaster valentini), reaches a maximum length of about 3.9". It's natural diet consists of green, red and brown algae and a wide range of invertebrates, including tunicates, corals, crustaceans, polychaete worms, echinoderms and sponges. All tobies produce tetradotoxin in the skin and viscera that makes them unpalatable to most predators. You didn't say which of the two different dward lionfish (Dendrochirus brachypterus or D. zebra) you're thinking of getting but both are similar in that their maximum length is between 6.5" to 7" and both eat shrimp and crabs and sometimes small fish. I don't consider a 35-gal tank large enough for any of those fish but that's my personal opinion. Feel free to seek other opinions on that aspect. __________________ Ninong

01-31-2006, 12:16 PM	#4
Poseidon Moderator Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Swartz Creek, MI Posts: 6,358	I agree with Ninong, a 35 gallon tank is pretty small. I would say clownfish, some gobies, cardinals those would all be fine. __________________ Need a Photographer? Just say NO to CRABS Mike

01-31-2006, 07:00 PM	#6
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 20,317	You will find that the people who sell fish (i.e., LiveAquaria.com) have a tendency to post smaller minimum tank sizes that most other references, which is understandable but self-serving. In the case of the Dwarf Lionfish that you are considering, Live Aquaria gives a minimum tank size of 30 gallons but Robert Fenner (www.wetwebmedia.com) says that he wouldn't put one in anything smaller than a 40-gal tank. And keep in mind that when you see "minimum" tank size recommendations, those are bare minimum sizes and not anything close to ideal sizes. I think you could keep the three fish you are considering in a 50-gal or larger tank without problems. The fish you are interested in are not fish that would be good choices for a 35-gal tank. There are lots of possibilities that would be much better choices for that size tank. Clownfish would do well but even with clownfish, the recommended minimum size for the larger species is 40 gallons. In general, you would be better to stick with smaller species, such as the popular Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto) or perhaps an Orchid Dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani). Even with those, most people would draw the line at 40 gallons as the minimum. The same thing goes for any of the dwarf angelfish (Centropyge species) -- a 40-gal is usually considered minimum. __________________ Ninong

01-31-2006, 07:43 PM	#7
Poseidon Moderator Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Swartz Creek, MI Posts: 6,358	When I worked @ a LFS, I used to recommend 50+ gallons as the MINIMUM for a salt water tank. I still believe that today, even in the age of Nano's, 50+ for beginners, leave the small stuff to the people who know what to expect. __________________ Need a Photographer? Just say NO to CRABS Mike

01-31-2006, 04:48 PM	#5
Green Marine Just Moved In Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Spring, Tx Posts: 46	ahhh really??? Not even if one was kept and no more??

01-31-2006, 10:32 PM	#8
CSeaSee Mayor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs Posts: 663	I second the advice of getting a bigger tank or smaller fish... everything that has been said is good advice. Don't just think about the physical well-being of the fish. Consider humane treatment as well. Would you like to spend the rest of your life IN a studio apartment? __________________ Carl Just tell your wife that having a tank teaches you all sorts of new DIY skills...which will save lots of money around the house...so you can buy more stuff for your tank...so you can learn more skills...

02-01-2006, 10:43 AM	#9
Green Marine Just Moved In Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Spring, Tx Posts: 46	Thanks For all Help :) Well I do understand the humane part, but it just seems like these species of fish your talking about are extremely small. When i say small i meen barely larger than damsels. My tank now has 1 damsel to get it started, and not only does my tank have that emptyness feeling when you look at it, but i never see my damsel other than when i feed it. Im looking for a species that is more outgoing with personality, but at the same time would be really neat to have an bring a more filling look to my tank. I have seen all these fish that your talking about Nenong at the LFS and they are quite small.If i were to get these fish, how many would I be able to have? So if i did go with smaller species would appear that I have a big tank with a couple of minnows (wich i understand they are not) ? Isnt the rule 1 inch of fish for every 5 gallons? Or is that Wrong? If this is right I believe 7 inches of fish would be my limit. Im really trying to get the most out of my tanks without it looking so....boring is the word I think im looking for. Can somone give me a fish list example that would be great choice for my size tank. Keep in mind I want FOWLR....I really want to stay away from the reef.

02-01-2006, 05:14 PM	#10
CSeaSee Mayor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs Posts: 663	The "inches per gallon" rule is useless because one seven-inch lionfish will produce craploads more waste than seven one-ich chromis... Your tank will look just fine with a few fish in it. It will look ridiculous with tons of fish fighting and harming each other all the time and you will get tired of replacing dead, expensive fish. __________________ Carl Just tell your wife that having a tank teaches you all sorts of new DIY skills...which will save lots of money around the house...so you can buy more stuff for your tank...so you can learn more skills...

02-02-2006, 07:52 AM	#11
Steven Pro Mayor Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 672	I don't have a problem with the flame hawkfish in the 35, but I agree that the rest would be problematic in such a small aquarium.

02-02-2006, 12:15 PM	#12
Green Marine Just Moved In Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Spring, Tx Posts: 46	Are you saying that you do have a hawkfish in a 35?

02-03-2006, 08:08 AM	#13
Steven Pro Mayor Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 672	No, I was just saying that personally I don't forsee a problem with a hawkfish in a 35. They don't swim over vast distances like angelfish or tangs do and it doesn't grow so large that it would negatively impact water quality.

02-03-2006, 10:44 AM	#14
almostdiva Mayor Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 963	You could do the hawk. You could also MAYBE do a Fu Manch lion. They only get to like 4 inches, and they don't move much either. But I would not put the hawk and the valentini or the Fu Manchu and the valentini in a 35G. If you go w the Fu Manchu, you will have to be carefull about what else you put in with him. They will eat damsels, small clowns, gobies and anything they can fit in their mouth. You would have that problem with the other lions, too. Fu Manchus do have great personalities though. Check them out. A bigger tank in the long run, if these are the fish you are attracted to, would be ideal. Rebecca

02-03-2006, 12:17 PM	#15
Green Marine Just Moved In Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Spring, Tx Posts: 46	Thanks almostdiva. Well you are right these are the fish Im attracted to. When you say bigger tank, does a 55 sound big enough. I saw a good deal at the thrift store for one of those for like 50$. Iv got the filter and powerheads for it. Yeah but I need to check out that fu manch lion. Iv never heard of those. Thanks alot. Also why is there questioning about the Valentini going in the 35 by itself? Is it a size matter? Because of so I noticed that the valentini only grows to about 4 ''. Also it is to my understanding that they grow very slow. Or is there another problem that i dont know about? Maybe its because it swims in a large area? I know now that the hawk and the Fu Manchu lion dont swim quite as much. Thanks all. Last edited by Green Marine; 02-03-2006 at 01:34 PM.

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