[squirt]

Hi all.

Recently, I treated my all-fish tank for ich with copper and I took out the live rock. I know copper will kill inverts and corals, but will it also effect the live rock?

I'm assuming it will. Before I add the live rock back to the tank, should I remove all the copper first?

Also, will a low level of copper effect the live rock?

[ReeferSD]

From what I have learned all the little critters in your LR will die off, and the copper will absorb into the tank so bleaching the whole tank (an empty tank of course) will probably be the only thing to do to get rid of all the copper. Is the LR in another tank or has it been out of water for awhile?

[squirt]

The live rock is another tank and still alive. I rely on the live rock to keep the tank low on ammonia and nitrates, but without the live rock, the tank's water quality may decline. Thanks for the info.

[Reefland]

I think he understands that. What he is saying is you cannot put the liverock back into the tank that copper was used in, even if you were to remove all of the water from that tank and start with new water. It is said that the glass will absorb copper and it will slowly leach back into the water. So, in order to keep inverts, you need to either put them into the tank that is holding the liverock, or get a new tank. Do not put any of it back into the tank that you added copper to.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by squirt

Recently, I treated my all-fish tank for ich with copper and I took out the live rock. I know copper will kill inverts and corals, but will it also effect the live rock?

The live rock contains thousands of microcrustaceans, polychaetes and other invertebrates. Very low levels of copper, in the low ppb (parts per billion) range, would be lethal to these inverts.

I'm assuming it will. Before I add the live rock back to the tank, should I remove all the copper first?

The copper is now adsorbed by the glass walls of the tank. It will be gradually released over a very long period of time. Even though these amounts are too small to affect the fish, they will be harmful and potentially even lethal to any invertebrate life.

"Removing" the copper from the tank is a very difficult and dangerous process. You may not be willing to go that far. We discussed these issues in this recent thread.

Also, will a low level of copper effect the live rock?

Yes, it would kill all of the invertebrate life on and within the rock.

[acer]

Hmmm - doesnt carbon remove high levels of copper. and isn't copper a naturally occuring substance in the ocean- in very low doses. Just food for thought.

[squirt]

Thanks for all the good info. It's a good thing I asked.

I was just on the verge of doing it, but thought, "Nah, it doesn't hurt to ask a few people". Thanks again...

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by acer

Hmmm - doesnt carbon remove high levels of copper. and isn't copper a naturally occuring substance in the ocean- in very low doses. Just food for thought.

Your assumptions are incorrect and could mislead uninformed hobbyists to conclude that carbon might solve their copper contamination problems. It won't.

Copper concentration in the ocean is 0.254 ppb (Pilson 1998). Copper is toxic to invertebrates, especially mollusks, at concentrations as low as 2-3 ppb. That would be a 10-fold increase over natural seawater concentratons. Copper is toxic to fish at much, much higher concentrations -- in the ppm range. Hobby test kits cannot measure copper in the ppb range. In fact, even ICP cannot measure copper below 3 ppb.

Carbon is ineffective at removing copper that has been adsorbed by the glass walls of the aquarium or the calcareous substrate -- either live rock or calcium carbonate based sand or crushed coral. Copper that has been adsorbed will be gradually released over a long period of time. Carbon and commercial products, such as Cuprisorb, are ineffective at removing all of the copper at such low concentrations. You can remove enough of the copper that the tank will be safe for fish but it won't be safe for most invertebrates.

In order to make a tank that has been exposed to copper safe for invertebrates, it must be decontaminated in a very laborious and dangerous procedure involving a scrubbing with full strength hydrocholoric acid followed by 10 rinses with R.O./D.I. water and then a scrubbing with acetone followed by 10 rinses.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by acer

Hmmm - doesnt carbon remove high levels of copper. and isn't copper a naturally occuring substance in the ocean- in very low doses. Just food for thought.

I wish it were that easy!

[acer]

Beleive it or not - I agree , but thought you guys could explain it better than I why a hospital tank should not have any live rock in it and h2o that has been in a hospital tank should never be added back into the main tank. Just one question that I do need help with. What if I am isolating a copperbanded butterfly or some other species that needs live rock to beable to stay healthy for the month it is in the isolation/hospital tank. I guess the rock that is put in is just a "write off".

[Ninong]

A true hospital tank, one where copper therapy might be used, should not contain live rock or a sandbed. Check out this article.

[acer]

so do you just let the copperbanded butterfly starve or what? how do you maintain any live bacteria in the tank so nitrate/ammonia doesnt build up quickly?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by acer

how do you maintain any live bacteria in the tank so nitrate/ammonia doesnt build up quickly?

That's explained in that article I linked. Read the section on filtration.

[Ninong]

Copperband Butterflyfish (Chelmon rostratus) don't get much nutrition in captivity from picking at the live rock. If they don't adapt to commercial foods, they will starve to death. Try feeding a freshly opened clam from the supermarket. Just place a small, opened clam on the bottom of the tank. The main trick is to teach them to take food from the water column, which is not natural for them.

Fish do not require live rock while in quarantine. They have to be fed with standard hobby fare.

You can't set up a quarantine/hospital tank with live rock or a sandbed or you wouldn't be able to medicate in it.

Some hobbyists, Wayne Shang comes to mind, do not set up their quarantine tanks in this manner but then they can't medicate in them or even employ hyposalinity. Wayne has an 80-gal quarantine tank for observation of all newly acquired livestock but it is set up with a sandbed and live rock. Basically he's using it as a place to observe newly acquired livestock and to give them a place to rest up from the stresses of collection and transport prior to being introduced to the main tank. I have no idea what he does if he discovers ich or some other problem. Maybe he has another smaller tank that he can move them to for medication?

[acer]

OK thanks- I was just afraid that if the copper gets to eating "normal" fare he wont eat the atipshia or mojo's.

[Ninong]

Aiptasia is not a part of a Copperband Butterflyfish's natural diet; however, in captivity they almost always learn to relish it. This can sometimes take several weeks but once they discover how tasty the little nasties are, there's no stopping them.