[Freddy Twotimes]

I was reading a Leebca thread about Nitrates and origins; there was a statement made that in a young aquarium [under 6 months old] Nitrates are not as important to keep under 25ppm, and you should be more concerned after it matures as to keeping that level down if you seem unable to do so.

My tank was cycled with live rock that had a lot of organic material on it resulting in a great deal of detritus, left on and in the sugarfine sand once it cycled. The Nitrate was 160ppm when it was cycled, I stacked multiple water changes reducing Nitrate to 20ppm. Stirring the sand daily for a week, I tested again and the Nitrates went up to 80ppm.

I vacuumed the sand while performing a large water change, tested again and I am down to 20ppm again. The water peramitors are textbook except the Nitrate level.

I seem to be strirring up and getting Nitrate from the sand into the water[?] How can the Nitrate go up by strirring the sand?

As I do some smaller weekly water changes for a while and continuing to vacuum for a while, I will be adding a cleanup crew and looking to get the Nitrate down. Based upon what is going on, am I doing the right thing and what is an time frame you would expect to see a low Nitrate level? [this will be a reef aquarium but its just rock for now]

[leebca]

Your description sounds like the live rock was not fully cured when placed in the aquarium. This is not a problem and some people actually do this on purpose. The aquarium hasn't begun to mature until the rock has finished curing. So I'd estimate that your aquarium hasn't aged long. The clock for maturing may have just begun, assuming the curing process of the rock has recently been completed.

The 6-8 months for maturing mentioned in this reference: The Mature Aquarium assumes the live rock was fully cured when the aquarium began.

The maturing process will take as long as it needs to take. Mother Nature provides no timetables nor guarantees except -- it will happen -- with time.

There is still one concern and that is that the live rock is truly 'alive' enough to perform the necessary denitrification, OR, that there is enough circulation in the tank to get the rock to perform the denitrification work. If the rock won't do this, you can pretty well assume that the nitrates won't ever go down without additional filtration or action taken to remove or denitrify them.

You might want to share with us more about the live rock. Where did it come from (on the planet)? Why was there so much die-off on the rock, according to your perspective? Was it shipped wet to you, or did it come from an LFS tank? Is it new or fresh or old live rock? Has the rock ever been in another aquarium?

[Freddy Twotimes]

It was Kalini rock. I bought from the store before and had no problems until this time. There was a type of a weed growing on some of the pieces that was really stiff and eventually turned white and fell as a form of gray powder over time.

The rock was in a tank with flow and a big skimmer, some of the pieces were not cured when I got them. I was told by that store as long as nothing was in the tank it was ok. I stopped going to that store after he knew I was having a problem and offered no solutions and actually said I may never get my ammonia to zero! He wanted to sell me fish!

I found a much better store who cares about my success in the hobby and I never looked back; but I have something in my tank that seems to be doing some biological filtration keeping my ammonia and nitrate to 0 these past 4 weeks.

[Freddy Twotimes]

Also, I am turning the water over 20 times per hour, I have good flow even along the back of the tank.

[Poseidon]

Part of the tank maturing is the tank keeper getting used to the tank too. At first when I read your thread, I wondered why you were stirring your sand, but then I saw this is the "Fish only" forum. I still want to ask though, is this a Deep Sand Bed, or simply a shallow layer for looks? If you are planning a DSB, then DON'T STIR the sand! If it is a shallow bed, then you have done nothing wrong.

My take on this, is to wait.... It will come down eventually, and then you can add your fish slowly. (After QT of course.)

[leebca]

Freddy,

Sorry you got off to a rough start. If you have some time, I'd recommend you read this reference closely:
What is Live Rock, Anyway?

Like the above explains, there are two functions that rock can perform. The bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate stick to the surface of anything. They live everywhere. It just takes them time to settle in. When you no longer see ammonia and nitrite readings with the test kits, they are there, on the job!

It doesn't take live rock to do the above process. Rock is just a surface area for those bacteria to cling to.

This leaves nitrate in the tank from the above process. What live rock can do with nitrate is change it to nitrogen gas (amongst other things) and thus reduce your nitrate levels. This activity occurs inside the live rock and in holes in the live rock.

My concern is still that you don't have live rock in the sense that it will process the nitrates.

Poseidon's question about how deep the substrate is, is a good one. I read you were stirring it, but pictured a shallow, thin, layer of sand. Bad assumption on my part.

Do you have any part of the system which is supposed to process nitrates (e.g., deep sand bed, refugium, nitrate reactor, etc.) that we haven't heard about?

[Freddy Twotimes]

I apologize for the post of a future Reef aquarium in the fish only aquarium. My questions are based specifically upon the water quality and Nitrate issues and Leebca has been the most helpful so...I have been posting those water questions here.

I do have a sandbed that is a about 3.5" - 4" deep. The reason I have been stirring the sand is to get that fine gray poweder out of it; the powder that I have been calling detritus. This is what came off the rock and ended up on the sand after the live rock cycled.

Again, I do believe the rock is good now because the ammoinia and nitrites have held at zero for about a month now. The nitrates came down 140ppm after the stacked water changes I did. I did those water changes after I noticed the ammonia and nitratite levels were zero the first time. The nitrate went up to 80ppm after stirring the sand and now back to 20ppm after I vacummed.

I have time, I want to do this right and I have been doing nothing but working on the set up of the equipment thus far. This time around I had purchased a PH probe, all the test kits, I got a better light, more flow in the tank, I started with 1.2 lbs of live rock all at once this time, a great protien skimmer etc.

Right now I need to get some powerhead magnets because the rubber wont stick like it used to and it blew the sand off the bottom and rock fell.

These are the things I want to learn about and solve before I add any life to the tank.

I would rather experience these setbacks now that I am in a better position to deal with them. I am learning alot and not at the expence of the fish or corals so thats good.

If the deep sand bed will eventually reduce nitrates how and how long will that take? If I have 20ppm as far as a Nitrate reading how long should that be acceptable in this aquarium before I take additional measures?

[leebca]

Both types of systems (FOWLR and Reef) begin similarly, then diverge more as the aquarist wishes to maintain and grow other life forms. Circulation and lighting will be the key differences at the outset.

The deep sand bed has the ability to process nitrates, using the same or similar bacteria that live inside the live rock. It does this by creating an area within the bed that is low in oxygen content where these bacteria like to live. Water must flow into the sand bed (slowly) and bring with it the nitrates and nutrients those kinds of bacteria like. Disturbing and stirring the sandbed defeats this purpose. By stirring the bed, oxygen is put into the bed and the oxygen-deficient loving bacteria can't settle in and start their job.

I know it's late but -- the sandbed should not have been stirred from the very beginning. You don't want organics deep in the sand bed where they can decompose and encourage the bacteria that metabolically produce hydrogen sulfide gas (a deadly gas to marine life). So stirring has perhaps put some organics into the bed a bit prematurely.

However, it is unclear what this 'grey matter' might be.

At this point in time, do not stir the sand bed anymore. If you actually see any buried chunks of organics (through the aquarium wall below the surface) remove just that/those. Don't go after any powder. Other than this, leave the sand bed alone.

When you introduce more organisms, clean-up crew, etc. they should be of the kind that will work the sand to get at anything that is edible. Your clean up crew should ideally include organisms that bury and work the sand bed particles.

The sandbed should take a few weeks to a few months to reach optimum ability to process nitrates. Like the bacteria that handle ammonia and nitrites, these bacteria need time to settle in and they prefer a stable environment of low oxygen. They need a good home and stirring the sand prevents that from happening. So for this case, the clock has just begun ticking after the bed is left undisturbed.

What guidance have you/did you use for putting in the deep sand bed? Do you know the particle size range of the substrate in the bed? Have you read any books or pamphlets on deep sandbeds?

[Freddy Twotimes]

After reading your link to live rock I cant say what I have because that would mean trusting the guy who was trying to sell me fish with an uncycled tank. I have no doubt that the rock is kalini rock, it has coroline algae on it and it did cycle to the point where it took time and eventually controlled the ammonia and nitrite levels to zero and is now holding.

As far as its ability to control the nitrates is an unknown to me and now, I have to rely on the DSB or do something else...

[leebca]

Whew! I was afraid from our current exchange of posts that I wasn't getting across the difference between the two functions of the rock. Any rock (live or dead) can act as a surface for the bacteria that make nitrates from nitrites and nitrites from ammonia. But only proper live rock can process the nitrates to nitrogen gas. That's the true value of live rock.

At this point in time I'm unsure of the 'liveness' of the live rock, too. With the DSB working it may not be possible to tell what is processing the nitrates. For now, I'd say the rock was not working up to its potential. If you're inclined to replace it, now is the time to do it. Like you so well pointed out, there is no major lifeforms at stake at this time in the evolution of your aquarium.

You'll need to give the DSB time. IF you decide to not replace or add more live rock, then I would continue on with the introduction of basic cleanup crews (avoiding hermit crabs) and start feeding them. They won't be concerned about the nitrates and you'll have something to watch and feed while waiting for the DSB to mature!

I would suggest to monitor the nitrates and make 'normal' water changes. (That is, don't make a water change just for the nitrates). At some point in time you'll notice a decline in nitrates that isn't associated with a water change.

You'll want to eventually monitor for phosphates, too, so I would start doing that now. Don't take any action against the nitrates or phosphates for now. Just monitor them twice a week or so.

It may sound lame. . .I wish to congratulate you on taking your time, going slowly, and risking little in the way of marine life while the aquarium matures as you learn the process. Your patience will be well rewarded if you keep it up. Good luck!

[Freddy Twotimes]

The reading I have done regarding DSB's was on this forum and on the web. I was facing a lot of "I love DSB's" and "I hate DSB's" articles and I cant find the thread but I think I remember Charlie responding to the thread and he loves his DSB. After seeing his reputation here at Reefland and looking at his involvement in the hobby I trusted that it was a good thing to do.

I am using a sugar fine sand [aragonite I believe its called]

I will leave the sandbed alone now that the nitrates are 20ppm and no longer 160ppm

By the way, it is as little as 2" in some parts and 5" in others depending.

[leebca]

I'm glad you're getting reliable advise on DBSs. That's important. I use a DSB only in my refugium and think well of it.

[Poseidon]

Congrats! Sounds like you are heading in the right direction!

I love my DSB, just leave it alone, and the NO3 will fade away. Lee also mentioned a point I agree with 100%, AVOID hermit crabs!

Keep up the good work, keep reading, and I am sure you will do fine.

[Freddy Twotimes]

Thanks for all of your help, both of you. I want a successful tank and it really makes no difference how long it takes to me. If the setup of the tank is shotty I will never have any luck at all so getting all of these things done now is best for me. I have had tanks of one kind or another for 15 years or so and have had little knowledge as to why I failed or succeeded for that matter.

I may even change my mind about the sandbed too. It seems like it works the best if you DO NOT DISTURB IT. I am reading that if the tanks substrate is deep and it gets disturbed you can cause a lot of problems; based upon that and the more I read it sounds like you can be very successful with one but if you make a mistake it can cause big issues. I have to decide for myself if I will be prone to make the kind of mistakes a beginner will make, like I have been making and decide if I should take some sand out or not.

I have not ruled that out yet. It has been great that I have been able to make so many mistakes and did nothing more than wait it out and look at dirty tank water until it settles and try again.

I have even had time to try different test kits and realized I like the AP brand better than what I was using, plus I got the PH probe. When I am ready for corals and fish, its going to look awesome and they will be healthy and happy! Which will make me happy

By the way, I just got a new job that requires travel and I may be gone for up to a week at a time once a month. What a perfect time to set up an auto top off kit! Everything will be realized and running by the time the 1st coral hits the water! I have also been looking into fish that feed on copepods where I do not need to be home to feed them everyday and corals alike. This should all work out in the end.

Thanks again

[zhenya]

If you haven't read this article on sand bed, then I highly recommend reading it to help you decide if you like to continue with DSB aproach or not.

Good luck!

[mhender]

Why should he avoid hermit crabs?

[leebca]

See my posts in this thread:
Yes I Know Another Dumb Question