Waterchanging a cycling tank

[Irvine]

Here's the deal, My tanks been cycling for 6.5 weeks now (seems like forever) and I was doing a 10% water change twice a week for the 1st 4 weeks. Then I decided to cut the water changes in half, thinking the frequent water changes was impeding the cycle, anyway now the water is getting cloudy and slightly green, should I go back to 10% twice a week, or leave it til the cycle finishes. Also, should'nt I have a Nitrate reading by now?
Excuse the ignorance, I had Freshwater tanks for years, and this is my 1st Salt tank.

Im using 4 damsels to cycle a 75G
readings are:
PH 8.2
Amm 0.25
N02 0
N03 0

[leebca]

I think you've been given some mis-information. Cycling a marine aquarium no longer should include the fish until the aquarium is months old.

Rather than try to recommend how to 'straighten' out your path, I would urge you to read this thread for recommendations on how to start a FOWLR:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

It is generally considered that having fish in a tank that is cycling is being unkind to the fish. Even the so called 'hardy fish' are adversely affected by the poisons (ammonia and nitrite) the tank cycles through.

[Irvine]

I would urge you to read this thread for recommendations on how to start a FOWLR:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

Thanks, but that does'nt really answer my question, and my tanks already up & running for almost seven weeks now.
Anyone else care to give some advice regarding my water condition?

[leebca]

Irvine,

You are partially correct. Water changes can dilute the poisons that would jump start the bacteria. So reducing the water changes will increase the poisons, hurt the fish even more, but increase the rate at which the tank will cycle. However, your the aquarium appears to be very close to finishing its cycle. I wouldn't take any action at this time other than to cut down on the water changes, unless you see a spike in ammonia and/or nitrite, then protect the fish by changing the water.

As described in the above reference, there is more than cycling which the tank needs to do.

However, not knowing what else you've added, not done, or basics about the start-up procedure you're using, it's not reasonably possible to give much of any additional guidance. If you will look at the reference and decide where you are in that start up and what you have and haven't done, it will help you. That reference takes the aquarist up to the first 8 months of owning a new FOWLR aquarium, so it covers your current time frame.

[Irvine]

For a 'clean up crew', is it necessary to have Live rock for these critters? Im not using Live rock (its not live anymore anyway) and this is why I used the Damsels for Cycling, although I read I could've used dead shrimp or something.
Regarding the clean up crew, what would you suggest? my fish choice (in a few months) will consist of Dwarf Angels.

[wozza]

Dwarf Angels.

did you mean the plural 'angels' i doubt you could get more than 1 in a 75g as they dont like conspecifics.

[Irvine]

did you mean the plural 'angels' i doubt you could get more than 1 in a 75g as they dont like conspecifics.

Conspecifics? thats a new word to me!
If you're saying a 75 is too small for more than one Dwarf Angefish, I disagree, Ive seen 75's with up to twenty marine fish, Angels, tangs, triggers and the like. Im not planning on anything like that, just saying.

I'd like to have a Coral Beauty, a bi-colour, and a flame or keyhole Angel.

[wozza]

Conspecificity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Conspecificity is a concept in biology. Two or more individual organisms, populations, or taxa are termed conspecific if they belong to the same species.
The antonym is heterospecificity: two individuals are heterospecific if they are considered to belong to different biological species.

Ive seen 75's with up to twenty marine fish, Angels, tangs, triggers and the like.

poor fish!

I'd like to have a Coral Beauty, a bi-colour, and a flame or keyhole Angel.

i guess you may be able to have two in there if you have plenty of rock work, just be prepared to remove one of them if they start fighting

cheers james

[leebca]

Use snails and worms for your clean up crew. The list of snails, the advantages and disadvantages of each are pretty well outlined in these articles:
http://www.reefland.com/rho/0305/medprod3.php

3 articles on snails:
The Grazing Snails, Part I - Turbo, Trochus, Astraea, and Kin by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com
The Grazing Snails, Part II - Abalones, Limpets and Nerites by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com
The Grazing Snails, Part III: Conchs, Ceriths, Cowries, and Columbellids by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

Nassarius Snails as Scavengers in Reef Aquarium
Internet Archive Wayback Machine

Don't' use hermit crabs (see the last of the listed articles for reasons).

Live rock provides a surface area where bacteria can live and grow. This includes inside the rock. You may want to understand its value more from reading this: What is Live Rock, Anyway?. If you have begun an aquarium, it doesn't matter how many fish (or dead shrimp) you used to get it to cycle. If there isn't enough surface area for the microbes to live and reproduce, if the conditions in the tank/system aren't good enough to keep the bacteria alive and healthy, the tank won't cycle very well and then when it does, it will not support much life forms (or have what we call a bio-load capacity).

What are you using for your biological filter? That is, where is the processing of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate taking place? (This is called nitrification). If it isn't live rock, then do you have an undergravel filter? a canister filter with the proper media in it? or ? More information about nitrification can be found in the middle of this thread: Denitrification v. Nitrification

The foundation of a sucessful marine aquarium is being able to keep the bacteria -- all kinds of bacteria -- happy. This is strange, I know, but very true.

Without live rock, the landscaping of the tank will seem a bit sparse. Still, if you don't use live rock, but use other decorations, you can probably put in there two or three Dwarf Angels, but you'll need to landscape the tank so that these three fish can hide from each other; and not have a straight line of sight with each other, to keep the peace. This assumes your tank will have enough bio-load capacity to handle these fishes.

A tank full of fish doesn't mean it is the right thing to do for the fish. The tank you described, cramped with fish, means those fish will live a short life under the constant stress of being short of space. Those in the hobby for the care and concern for our pets wouldn't want to put the animals through such a poor quality life. Often you'll find such tanks at local fish stores which keep them like this in the hopes to seel them pretty quickly. But for a hobbyist to have such a tank means the aquarist is being cruel to the fishes in his/her care.

The hobby is a challenge, Irvine. There is a lot to learn; enjoy learning it!

[Irvine]

Thanks for the info I'll read through it later.
I have about 100lbs of base marine rock/old live rock, for biological filtration Im using a Rena xp3 canister which contains, biomax rings on the bottom, foam sponge, then another finer sponge, and finally a carbon mesh bag.
Also Im running a hang on back Penguin 350 biowheel. for sustrate Im using 50lbs crushed coral.
Today I checked the water and the ammonia has dropped to zero (2 days ago it was 0.25) but still no Nitrite or Nitrate readings yet.
As for the Angelfish, its still early yet to make any definate choices.

[Irvine]

In regards to my bacterial bloom, any estimation in how long this will last? Its not getting any cloudier, but its no clearer either, been that way for two weeks now, When viewing from one end of the tank, you really cant see the other end.
I am tempted to do a water change, but don't want to slow the cycle any.
Guess Im just getting impatient!

[leebca]

Up to a point the bacterial bloom should be self-regulating. That is, in time it should go away when their nutrients and living conditions become sparse and less comfortable (respectively).

If the condition persists, then there is a constant source of nutrients and conditions that is promoting them to 'hang on.' I'm assuming you are sure it is a bacterial bloom and not just suspended fine debris or sand dirt.

In general, a water change won't have a large impact on bacterial population so long as the bacteria are being fed and cared for -- that goes for the desirable as well as the undesirable bacteria. Super happy bacteria can divide every few hours.

Was it always this cloudy? Has it improved over time or gotten worse over time, since the tank was set up?

Tell me more about the old rock. Is it porous or has coralline covered it and filled in most the crevices?

What organic materials have you been adding to the aquarium? (food, plants, marine life that have died, things that are dying, etc.). The bacteria need organic material to 'bloom.' Can you identify anything that is dead or dying in the sand, on the rock, in the tank, etc?

I don't see any skimmer listed in your equipment list. Are you using a skimmer? Rated for how large of system? Your skimmer should be rated for no less than twice (I prefer thrice) the size of the marine system you own. If you are using a skimmer, tell me what the skimmate looks like.

If you added up all your pumps, how many gallons per hour are being circulated in the entire system?

You're not the first one to suffer from impatience. Trust me! It's the hardest thing for aquarists to find. But those that do find it, have the greatest and most rewarding success in this hobby.

[Irvine]

For a skimmer Im using a 'Coralife super 220' Im getting half a cup of green/brown fowl smelling sludge every 3 days.

My water was'nt always cloudy, after the initial setup, it was very clear, It became cloudy about three weeks ago, and has'nt got better or worse.
I believe I have enough filtration, a Rena XP3, and Penguin 350 BioWheel. Im running 2 maxi-jet 900 powerheads. My rock is not 'live rock' but is ocean rock, is quite porous and is now turning a brown colour with a few purple spots.

I feed the 4 Damsels twice daily, mysis shrimp, omega one flakes w/garlic, and omega one pellets. I give them the shrimp every other day. I don't think Im overfeeding as they eat everything I give them and theres nothing left on the bottom.

[leebca]

Was the rock actually from the ocean or is it land rock that was once under water? Do you know any more about the kind of rock it is? e.g., what kind of stone?

What are you using for the water to make up new, fresh saltwater?

I don't see any excess organics, though the skimmer is doing its job. The 'brown phase' is normal and indicates water quality of a more or less unstable and undesirable kind. That should work itself out with time.

Any unusual smell to the water?

[Irvine]

The rock is Carib Sea reef rock from Big Als LFS, its definately for marine tanks. Dont know the actual make up of it though.



I make my water using a 5 Gallon pale of RO water, add the recommended amount of instant ocean salt, add a heater to bring up the temp a bit, and let it sit for a few hours before transferring it to the tank. my salinity is 0.023-0.025.
you asked about any unusual smell, well, nothing noticeable as far as I know.
The skimmer has only been collecting liquid for a week now, prior to that it was really just foam.

Also, I have carbon (mesh bag) in the top tray of my canister, would removing the carbon help the cycle?

[Irvine]

update: Today the tank is almost clear, 90% improvement!
also tested the water again and still no Nitrate or Nitrite, Am is between 0-0.25
There must be a Nitrate reading for the cycle to finish...right?

[Reefland]

Hi Irvine,

If that is the only rock that you put into the tank, you really need to get some good liverock to help seed it and add some life to the aquarium.

[leebca]

Actually, old carbon is a good place for bacteria to cluster. Removing it shouldn't adversely affect nor improve the cycling process.

You should see some nitrates showing up as the ammonia goes through the nitrification process to nitrates.