[ralphie16]

how is this stocking for a 220 gallon (72x24x30)

Porcupine puffer
Moorish Idol
Emperor Angel
Sailfin Tang
Butterflyfish (undecided which species)
Bluejaw trigger

[ralphie16]

if i have to drop any one them per your recommendations I would rather it be one of the LAST 4 (angel, tang, bf, or trigger)

[leebca]

They will most likely get along.

I think the (adult) Emperor should be in no less than a 500g aquarium. Also, the Emperor may find the competition for food a bit of a strain. The Puffer and Trigger will hog the food.

The Butterflyfish needs to be one of the more 'forward types' that won't be shy about getting its fair share of food.

The Sailfin is usually too reclusive for this grouping. If you swapped it for the Red Sea Sailfin, a.k.a. Desjardini Tang, it would be an improvement.

In general, a fair grouping.

[ralphie16]

Thank you for the advice.

I meant Zebrasoma desjardini when I said sailfin so I'm happy you mentioned that I made a good choice.

Since I emp angel needs a 500 gallon as an adult you think I should completely forget about it because I do not plan on upgrading tanks anytime under 5 years? Is it better I left an angel off the list completly or would a Personifer Angel be a more appropriate choice?

[ralphie16]

I forgot to ask, what would be the appropriate order of introduction.

I must have the porcupine puffer in first because he is stuck in a 30 gallon QT for now and do not want to prolong his stress any more then I have to.

I was thinking:

porcupine puffer
moorish idol
butterfly
sailfin tang
trigger
angel

[wozza]

you will want the least assertive fish in first, so im guessing,
angel
butterfly
moorish idol
tang
puffer
trigger

but as you said you cant do that i guess you will have to change it to;
puffer
angel
butterfly
moorish idol
tang
trigger

but lee may have other ideas

cheers james

[ralphie16]

from my understanding the angel would be the dominant personalit in the tank, no?

[leebca]

You basically have a grouping of fishes that no fish will dominate the others. They won't recognize each other as enemies, and only marginally recognize each other as mild competitors.

This usually leaves the third factor: Getting food. The fourth factor: personality, is indeterminable and a 'wild card.'

So I would introduce them in the reverse order of who will 'charge at the food' the most. I.e., the slower eaters go in first. This puts the Angel nearer the middle.

porcupine puffer
butterfly
moorish idol
angel
sailfin tang
trigger

Normally, the Puffer should be down with the Trigger.

You can get an adult large Angelfish of 4" or less (how about a Blue Girdled, Pomacanthus navarchus), but you should move it out when it exceeds 6". The Blue Girdled can be gotten at about 2.5 to 3" with its adult coloration and it would fit the group fairly well.

Good luck!

[Fishyz]

What about a majestic, flagfin, or regal angel instead?

[leebca]

The Majestic is also known as the Blue Girdled Angel. That's a problem with common names. The Majestic is Pomacanthus navarchus.

The Flagfin (Apolemichthys trimaculatus) is considered a fish for experienced aquarists. A small one would fit with the group, but with the heavy eating carnivores the probabiliy of water quality going out of whack now and then is pretty high. This fish would suffer.

The Regal Angelfish (Pygoplites diacanthus) is too demure for this group, in my opinion, and also one that should be left to experienced aquarists.

[ralphie16]

I have never kept one of hte larger angels before so I am not familiar with their tank size requirements. I have scott michaels books including the "butterfly and angelfish" book and he states 135 minimum for the emperator. I understand this is a BARE minimum for this fish so that is why I assumed 220 would be enough. But you say 500 and I trust you very much to give good advice. But now I am confused with minimum requirements for the large angels. Would a good replacement for the emp angel be a Chaetodontoplus meridithi? He writes 75 minimum for them so would the 220 be enough for them in your opinion if i left out the trigger?

[leebca]

I understand your problems in trying to get a grip on appropriate aquarium size. I don't go by books. Sometimes I think authors are delirious.

The Emperor Angelfish gets to over 1 foot and 3 inches in the aquarium. So does the Personifer (Chaetodontoplus meridithi).

Try to imagine a 1 foot Angel, 1 foot Trigger, 1.5 foot Puffer, and a 1.5 foot Desjardini in that 220 plus another 1 foot from the other fishes. If you have a reasonable imagination and picture these fish, in this size, in the 220, do the fish look 'right?'

The fish you've chosen get to be some of the largest of all the ornamental marine fishes in the hobby. You can do some other things: Only put two of those (biggie) fishes in the 220; only put small specimens of these fishes in the 220; get a larger aquarium; or adjust your list to fit the space.

I appreciate your confidence in my experience. Take a look around to get an idea how mixed the space opinion is. Check Internet sites that sell these fishes just to gather the 'range' of tank size recommendations. You'll find it is quite a range on most of those fishes.

When counting upon the required space (for most marine fishes [excluding Tangs and many adult large Angels]), the initial size of the fish has to be taken into account. If you are planning juveniles of those fishes, they will fit fine, for a few years. If you are talking about young adults, they will fit fine for a couple of years. If you are talking about adults, with adult coloration, the 220 is too small. Hence that is why in my second post I suggested young adults or smaller fish (like the Majestic or Blue Girdled (Pomacanthus navarchus)) which have their adult coloration at a much smaller/younger age, but when reaching the adult age will find the tank too confining.

Fish grow at different rates. You'll find the Desjardini and Puffer will grow fairly quickly (if fed and nourished properly).

Now, if you ask Scott Michaels if that 75 would be good for a 1.3 foot Emperor and the other 1+ foot fishes, I think he may change his tune. If not, then stop paying attention to the tank size he recommends. He would have to explain, why two large Angelfishes that reach the same size require two different sized aquariums. Stump the stars!! :slap: So how reasonable is his advice? Only you can judge.

Also keep in mind that you can put fish into spaces too small for their well being. There are, so far, no Space Police. The result is that they die sooner or they get ill easier. These are things not readily seen/verified by new aquarists. However, I have seen young adult Emperors reach their adult full 1.3 foot size in aquariums of 500+ and die 'for not apparent reason' in two years in aquariums of 180.

[ralphie16]

Lee,

I did a lot of researching this weekend, taking into account all the advice you have written. Would you please comment on this (hopefully final) list?

Porcupine Puffer (Scott Michaels lists 12" max, fishbase lists 21")
Moorish Idol (6.5" max)
Sailfin Tang (desjardini) (16" max)
Chaetodontoplus meredithi (personifer) (10" max)

I am leaving out the trigger and the butterfly, and changing the Angel from the Emp (max 16") to the Queensland Yellowtail with is "only" 10" max. If this list is good then I would introduce the tang before the angel because I read that the angel gets aggressive to fish introduced after it. But you said angel first because of feeding habits. Do you still think this with this info I read about newcomers?

Also, the emp amgel you said should be in 500 gallon tank, but you made no mention of the sailfin and even suggested another species (desjardini) would be more appropriate, but this fish is bigger then the emperor! Does it have to do with their swimming habits in nature and things that the larger sailfin would be more appropriate then the smaller emperator angel?

[leebca]

You're asking good questions. Keep it up!


The most likely top length of the Puffer will be about 1.5 feet (18"). There are a few exceptions found in the sea, but this would be their top size in a home aquarium, IMHO.

Idol size is about right, but they grow very slowly. I didn't worry about it in your 220.

The Desjardini will grow to over a foot in length. But the volume of the tank isn't important to them, nor the depth, nor the width. What is important to the Desjardini is length. The 220 has a good length for even some of the larger Tangs. They need a long swimming distance.

The Personifer will top over a foot -- a foot + 2-4 inches is possible. What's important to them is length and width. They need 'surface area' to pick on or they will go 'crazy.' An adult Angel will pick at things up to 5 times a minute. They need surface area (rock, substrate, decor, etc.) to do this. They also need swimming space of length, but more in volume and the other dimensions. An adult Angel will work in a 300 if it is the only large fish.


The Desjardini (especially a larger one) will be a tad mean. Putting it last is your best idea. The Angel and Desjardini should not bother each other.

I think your list is okay! You can still include a hardy Butterflyfish if you want.

[ralphie16]

Lee,

Sorry for keep brining up this post but over the past few days I talked to many people who owned the Sailfin and many of them suggested a larger tank then the 220 because their sailfin's did not seem happy in anything less then a 7-8' tank.

Would a powder blue tang be an acceptable replacement? I enjoy them just as much as the sailfin but if they are better suited to my tank I would choose the PBT because I do not want to make my fish unhappy/stressed. I read that they tend to be aggressive towards other tangs, herbivores, and fish that look like them. Would any of my other fish be harrased or any negative interactions (porcupine puffer, idol, meridithi angel)? would you suggest the PBT before or after the angel?

And finally my last question (hopefully :-))....I understand a scribble angel and meridithi angel are in the same genus but if they are put in at the same time would they possibly coexist? Or would it create too much stress for them? I have read in scott michaels Angels&Butterfly book that he says the meridithi can get along with other angels as well as cogeners, but I have read elsewhere that it is always a risk mixing angels of the same species or genus.

[leebca]

Ralphie,

Don't worry about posting. You can post anytime, even the same concerns. Your attention to this tells me you are a caring aquarist and for a caring aquarist I have ample time and patience.

The PBT will remain smaller than the Desjardini. But it is more demure than the Desjardini and won't necessarily 'assert' itself at feeding time. It may have some issues with the character strength of the other fishes. That's why I thought the Desjardini would be best. Unlike most Tangs, the Desjardini is more forward. I have a Desjardini in my 300 gallon aquarium, so I don't think you have a concern.

But, if you are that concerned, then you can try the PBT. Ideally it would be the first fish into the tank, but since I think your Puffer is already there, then it will have to go second. Just be sure to properly acclimate it and get it eating right in a quarantine process.

As far as the PBT aggressiveness, it is a matter of when they are put in. I put in a PBT and a Powder Brown Tang into my aquarium at the same time and both get along fine. The second thing is their own individual personality. There's no accounting for why a particular fish doesn't like to can't along with another fish that it technically should get along with.

The two Angels can get along IF there is a 2" length difference between them and the smaller one gets in first. Again, the wild card is the personality. Have you seen the grouping of fishes I have? Lee’s Marine Systems

You can accomplish a lot with patience, care, and knowledge. I think you have a good enough quantity of each patience and care, so keep gathering the information.

Ask if you have any more questions or concerns.

[ralphie16]

Lee

I have looked further into the long term success of people keeping the Meridithi and it does not look very good. They seem to be very touchy fish, and a large part of their diet is jellyfish which I have no way of providing.

On the other hand I have found the Scribble Angel is much better suited for aquarium life. But read they tend to be somewhat aggressive. How he be a problem with the Idol/ Powder Blue Tang?

Overall, would the puffer, idol, pbt, and scribble be a decent community?

[leebca]

I think that combo will work. Now. . .The Angel has to go in last.

The Idol and PBT will hold their own once established. None should look upon the other as an intruder or competitor. The closest competitors would be the Idol and PBT.