Clown Help

[lifedive9]

Ok, so I recently got a true percula a week from today, was reading some threads and saw that in order to pair they should both be jueveniles. Needless to say I went back today picked up a second little guy and set him up in his new home after setting him free he attacked the other clown and hes smaller than the other one... Not knowing what to do I put him in a little quarentine bin with the slits in the sides so they cant get at one another, what do I do? I thought if i leave them apart that maybe they will get used to one another... I also have a sebae anemone(Heteractis crispa) which the clown has yet to host... any suggestions would be appreciated...

[Ninong]

A certain amount of aggression between clownfish is to be expected. That's how they sort out their hierarchy. If these are two juvenile Amphiprion percula, I doubt that the aggression will be too severe. They're certainly not as difficult as Premnas biaculeatus.

Heteractis crispa is a natural host for A. percula, so it's very likely that your fish will eventually accept it.

Good luck!

P.S. -- What are the approximate sizes of your two clowns? And are you sure that they are both captive-bred juveniles?

[lifedive9]

They are both captive bred and from the same store Welcome to Tropiquarium although they were purchase on site... they are both within 2 inches no smaller than an inch, one is larger than the other... the smaller of the two is newer and also was the one to attack first they actually locked lips and would swim in circles holding onto one another...

[Ninong]

The only reason I asked if they were captive-bred is because size is no indication of age if they were wild-collected. In their natural environment, growth is dependent on hierarchial rank within the group of conspecifics inhabitating a specific anemone host. It's possible that some individuals can be kept sexually immature (neither males nor females) for years if there are a dominant female and male pair residing in the same host.

Most captive-bred A. ocellaris are released for sale when they are only about 6-8 months old but most captive-bred A. percula aren't put on the market until they are around a year old. For one thing, A. percula don't usually develop full markings until about 12-14 months, especially the white bar on the caudal peduncle.

As long as you are certain that they are A. percula, they should eventually accept your H. crispa as a host. And if they are both juveniles, I would expect that the larger of the two will eventually win out in the battle of the sexes. In order for the smaller one to win, it will have to prevent the larger one from getting a fair share of the available food, thus slowing it's growth.

In general, the one that grows the fastest is the one to reach sexual maturity first. As protandrous hermaphrodites, they are born neither males nor females. The progression is from unsexed juvenile to male to female. However, they can't even become male if there is already a female-male pair present. If the female is removed, the male will become female and the ranking (meaning largest) sexually immature fish in the group will become a sexually mature male. In large carpet anemones, you will sometimes see groups of several conspecifics present but only one mature female and only one mature male.

In most species, female clownfish are larger than males but with A. clarkii the females and the males are approximately the same size.

[lifedive9]

thanks for the reply... I rearanged my live rock as to give off a new environment for both clowns and then let them free they seem to be ok... every now and then they rub against one another and then the smaller of the two starts to shake as if having a seizure or a fishy pleasurement lol... not sure exactually what this is... any clue?

[Ninong]

...and then the smaller of the two starts to shake as if having a seizure or a fishy pleasurement lol... not sure exactually what this is... any clue?

That's a sign of submission. The smaller fish has already acknowledged the larger fish as the boss. Boy, that didn't take long at all, did it?

Congratulations!

[lifedive9]

so is it more likely for the larger of the two to become the female based on size?

[Ninong]

so is it more likely for the larger of the two to become the female based on size?

It's called sexual determination by social aggression. To the victor go the spoils -- in this case the right to be the boss (female). Usually the larger fish is more mature and better able to beat up on the smaller fish, so the larger fish almost always wins out.

If you put two juveniles of the same species and exactly the same size and age together, the more aggressive individual will get a larger share of the available food and grow faster. In fact, the more aggressive individual will make sure that it gets more to eat than its rival even if this means physically preventing the smaller fish from gaining access to its fair share of the food. The larger fish will reach sexual maturity first and in this situation it will progress straight through male to female. The smaller fish will reach sexual maturity as a male and proceed no further because of the presence of the dominant female.

Eventually one of the two will recognize that it is the weaker individual and submit to the other. In your particular situation, this has already happened. The smaller fish has already exhibited submissive behavior. Once that happens, there is no need for actual physical aggression and the aggression becomes ritual instead. As long as the submissive fish responds appropriately whenever the dominant fish demands respect, there will be no physical battles. The physical battles are only necessary so long as there is confusion on the part of the weaker individual about its fate.

The behavior you just described is absolutely a sign of submission on the part of the smaller fish. Apparently the smaller fish now recognizes that it is not going to win any physical battles with the larger fish. It is very likely that they will get along a lot better from now on.

[cdearing]

Hi Lifedive,
Yes, I've been following both of your posts about your clown trouble. I am glad to know that moving the rocks around in your tank may have helped your fish to adapt. It would be fun to see a pic of the fish with locked lips.;;
Keep us posted on how things go with the clowns and your anemone. I know that some of them go for the anemone right away and others it takes them weeks. Good luck!
Cyn

[2maroons]

Hi lifedive, I understand the thoughts u r going through. I have 2 maroon clownfish that I bought juvenile, mine are wild caught, one is a white stripe and the other a yellow stripe and I had the same problem. Mine took it as far as fin nipping, yes I was worried because one was showing more dominance/aggression than the other but thats how they find their heirarchy, so I left them alone and true enough they are getting along well, one still bullys the the other one but hey, thats the nature of the fish. About your enemone, sometimes a clownfish can be really picky about their "homes", you should read up on anemones it is actually quite intresting and there are specific anemones that peticular species of clownfish will host to. A good book to read as well is called Clownfishes by Joyce D. Wilkerson, it has alot of good info in it. I have it and I highly enjoy it. If you have any other questions please ask. Thats how I learned some things. There is never a stupid question!

[Annette]

I inherited a tomato clown, I don't know the latin name, from my sister. It is big and mean, and I won't flush her based on the above discussion. It just seems wrong after she has lived for so long.

I can leave well enough alone, but I also wonder about a companion? It is a small tank, but my general question is whether the clown would be more stressed with other fish to fight with(probably only one or two) or is it better just to leave it alone?

[jollopee]

Well its been a while since I introduced my clowns but I think you should leave them in the tank together. They will eventually decide for themselves which one is going to be the more aggressive and that fish will become the female. Eventually one of those clowns will start acting like he is haveing a spasm, that is the clown that will be the male. The females are the alpha species as you might call it. But I would just put them both in the tank it could take months before they actually pair up with one another but I think they will be fine. Mine were fighting off and on for a good 2 months. It is the nature of the beast imo, but you should certainly let them both work out their differences in the tank on their own just as they would in nature. They will take to eachother sooner or later and both should be fine. The fighting is just the 2 of them trying to figure out who is going to be the more dominant and in the end, the female or male.

[jollopee]

sorry all I saw on my screen was the first post to this thread, which was quite some time ago, so disregaurd.

[Ninong]

I inherited a tomato clown, I don't know the latin name, from my sister. It is big and mean, and I won't flush her based on the above discussion. It just seems wrong after she has lived for so long.

I can leave well enough alone, but I also wonder about a companion? It is a small tank, but my general question is whether the clown would be more stressed with other fish to fight with(probably only one or two) or is it better just to leave it alone?

The ideal choice for any clownfish is another clownfish of the same species, in this case, Amphiprion frenatus. Unfortunately, if we're talking about your 15-gal tank, then you have a problem because the minimum size tank for this particular species is 40 gallons.

I would not recommend adding any fish at all to your present tank. Your tomato clown would likely kill them anyway.

[Nemo Keeper]

Here's a question...I have two percs that get along perfectly fine but neither have hosted my anenome. Am I doing something wrong?

[Ninong]

Here's a question...I have two percs that get along perfectly fine but neither have hosted my anenome. Am I doing something wrong?

Is your anemone a natural host for your percula clowns? What species is your anemone?

[Nemo Keeper]

Honestly, I'm really not sure. Her's a link to a pic. Maybe you canhelp me figure it out.
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/v...r928/007-1.jpg

[Ninong]

How much did you pay for that anemone?

[Nemo Keeper]

How much did you pay for that anemone?

I paid like 6 bucks for it. It was the first thing I ever bought for the tank

Posted via Mobile Device

[Ninong]

It is a Condylactis gigantea, an anemone that is found in the Atlantic/Caribbean area. In other words, they picked it up in the Keys, which is why it's so cheap.

It's not a clownfish-hosting sea anemone as there are no clownfish in the Atlantic/Caribbean. Occasionally some of the larger species of clownfish will accept this anemone as a surrogate host but it is highly unlikely that Amphiprion percula or A. ocellaris or any of the other smaller species would ever accept it. As a matter of fact, it is a threat to eat any small fish once it gets larger.