Choosing a different salt mix

[Carissa]

I'm trying to decide whether to stick with Instant Ocean or to switch to Seachem Marine Salt. The Seachem product is available to me locally for $40/50 gallons. The Instant Ocean is not available locally, but I can pick it up when I'm away for $90/160 gallons. So it's .80/gallon vs. .56 per gallon, with the advantage that I can get Seachem locally but have to plan ahead to get the Instant Ocean and therefore would need to buy large quantities to make sure I never run out since I only have a chance to buy it every two months or so. Is there any significant difference between the two that would justify the increased cost to me?

[DarthClownfish]

Do you keep fish, or a reef? IO is geared more towards fish, and is light on CA and Mg, as well as alkalinity. Seachem is geared more towards reefs. IO Reef Crystals is also geared more towards reefs.

In general, there is some benefit from buying smaller quantities of salt. There is some settling during shipping, and the elements are not always evenly distributed through the containers. It is advisable to the dry salt before mixing it in the tank. This can be done by pouring it bucket to bucket a few times. The bigger the bucket, the more of a pain it is. Not that you will do harm if you don't do this step, but you won't see as consistent results as you think.

That is balanced off by cost. Its all trade offs and compromises. The best thing is mix up an entire container of salt at once. That is in a perfect world - I certainly can't afford that

[Ninong]

The main issue I have with Seachem's salt mix is that it has double the boron concentration of any other salt mix because they deliberately spike it with extra boron as a way of boosting total alkalinity. However, this borate alkalinity, which is detected by standard alkalinity test kits, is not directly beneficial to organisms for calcification. Seachem actually makes a special alkalinity test kit that is different than standard alkalinity test kits (they call it their Magnesium and Carbonate/Borate Alkalinity test kit) but it has not been well reviewed.

Excess boron is not desirable for a variety of reasons. NSW Br=4.4 ppm (total Br). In natural seawater, boric acid makes up about 70% of total boron and borate makes up the other 30%. This changes based on pH. If you use Seachem salt and a standard alkalinity test kit, you will get alkalinity readings that are higher than they would be if the salt mix had not been spiked with extra boron. The carbonate alkalinity is the important alkalinity, not the borate alkalinity, but your test kit reads both as a combined total. Obviously this is not a problem is the borate alkalinity is within natural range but Seachem's is twice as high as natural.

Excessive Br can be toxic to certain corals. There is really no reason to produce a salt mix that has double NSW concentration of boron. No other manufacturer does this, only Seachem. And while we're on the topic of Seachem, there is really no good reason to use alumina (Al2O3) pellets as a phosphate sponge instead of ferric oxide hydroxide. Alumina pellets actually do release toxic aluminum into saltwater. Seachem knows this because it has been discussed with them several times over the years on another board but they still use it anyway. Virtually all of the other manufacturers have switched to ferric oxide hydroxide.

Ref:
Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
Aluminum and Aluminum-Based Phosphate Binders

[Carissa]

Good information. I think I'll just stick with mailing in the Instant Ocean, the cost is significantly less and I don't have a reef tank anyway.

[DarthClownfish]

Hard to go wrong with IO.

BTW, I heard Seachem fixed the borate issue. I have not tested it, but that is what I hear. IMO, IO and Reef Crystals are safe bets

[Ninong]

Hard to go wrong with IO.

BTW, I heard Seachem fixed the borate issue. I have not tested it, but that is what I hear.

That's interesting. I wonder if they also plan to stop selling alumina as a phosphate sponge? Both of those issues were discussed with Greg Morin on Randy's Reef Central chemistry forum several years ago.

[goog]

I never realized that there was such a variation in salt mix composition. I have easy access to Scripps NSW. I have a 180 gal fish only tank. Thoughts/comments appreciated.

Thanks

[Ninong]

If you have easy access to Scripps, there is absolutely no reason in the world for you to even consider artificial salt mixes. None whatsoever.

[CharlotteSteve]

What is scripps?

[Ninong]

What is scripps?

Scripps Institution of Oceanography
They very generously allow hobbyists to draw their own filtered natural seawater from their tap -- 100% FREE, just help yourself. I'm not sure if there is anything about this on their website but I know that they do it. We have members on this board who have used FREE filtered NSW from Scripps from the very beginning.

I believe it's at the end of this pier and I'm pretty sure it's filtered, at least that's what we have been told by locals who use it.



I can't find anything about the FREE seawater on the Scripps website but maybe that's just because they don't want to advertise it? Perhaps goog can verify for us whether it's still available and confirm that it is filtered?

The Seattle Aquarium used to sell filtered NSW to hobbyists for only five cents a gallon after payment of an initial $10 registration fee but I'm not sure if they still do that because the last time I checked their website I couldn't find it. The details used to be on their website.

The Monterey Bay Aquarium uses both filtered and unfiltered NSW but, as far as I know, they do not offer it to hobbyists.

[Nemo Keeper]

Question...I have access to NSW from the Florida Keys. I go several miles offshore and collect water that is crystal clear. I've tested this water with my test kits and all the parameters come out ideal. Do I still need to filter this water. Again, it's not from the shore, this water comes from 4 to 5 miles off shore. Thoughts????

[Ninong]

Question...I have access to NSW from the Florida Keys. I go several miles offshore and collect water that is crystal clear. I've tested this water with my test kits and all the parameters come out ideal. Do I still need to filter this water. Again, it's not from the shore, this water comes from 4 to 5 miles off shore. Thoughts????

You don't have to filter the water if you use it right away. If you plan to store it for use later, then you should put it in a Rubbermaid Brute container (yellow, white or gray only), or something similar that meets the same specs, cover it with the lid, and leave it undisturbed for a week. During that time, the plankton (phyto- and zoo-) will die off an settle to the bottom. Leave it there. Siphon off the water without disturbing the stuff that has settled to the bottom of the container. You don't want that stuff.

There is always a risk involved when you use unfiltered natural seawater but the Monterey Bay Aquarium uses it every night to flush their 1-million gallon exhibit. During the daytime, they use filtered water in that exhibit and they use filtered water in all of their other exhibits. At nighttime, the natural seawater is rich in plankton, which is why the Monterey Bay Aquarium uses it at night. Besides, they can't use it in the daytime without filtering it first because the water wouldn't be as clear for the customers.

Besides the obvious risks from water pollution caused by oil spills, ships and you-know-what from sports boats, there is the risk from fallout from nearby refineries or chemical plants, if any. Some of this stuff isn't even removed in the filtering process.

If you are comfortable using natural seawater that you collect yourself, then go for it. You won't be saving any money unless you're going out there anyway for other reasons and collecting the water is just lagniappe.

Good luck!

[Nemo Keeper]

Thanks Ninong, I usually go jet skiing on the wekends and it only takes about a half hour of my time to go out and collect some water. Now I haven't used that water directly in my tank just yet but I was wondering if I could cause it would save me alot of money by filtering it. As far as the plankton is concerned, why is this bad for the tank? Wouldn't it be consumed by other creatures in the tank?

[Ninong]

Carefully reread my post. I didn't say plaknton was bad for your tank. I said you could use the natural seawater without filtering it provided you used it right away. If that is what you plan to do, you might even bring one of those battery-powered airstones with you to aerate the water until you can get it into your aquarium.

What I said was that if you plan to store it for later use, you should cover it and allow all of the phyto to die off first. Live phyto=good; dead phyto=bad because it will put nitrates into your tank. The phytoplankton and zooplankton will not stay alive more than a couple of hours. It won't stay alive in storage. That's why you have to use the seawater right away if you want to roll the dice and add it unfiltered to your tank.

It goes without saying that if you choose to use fresh, unfiltered natural seawater, you will be getting the good, the bad and the merely ugly. Like Forest Gump's momma said, "Unfiltered natural seawater is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get."

[Nemo Keeper]

OK, Sorry, I read through your first post a little fast and jumped to conclusions. Sounds good though, I have a battery operated air pump that I could use to keep it going for a couple of hours till I get it in my tank. The reason I am asking is because the LFS I used to get my water from sold a batch of water to a friend of mine which wiped out his whole tank. Upon further research, I found out that most of the LFS here in South Florida drive their trucks to the shore, marina or inlet and pump out the water with total disregard to where that watewr is. I even heard of this LFS selling water to customers as he was pumping it from his truck to his tanks in the back of the store. So I figured with all the $$$ I have put into my tank, I would rather take the time, have fun on the wave runner and collect some good clean water.

[Ninong]

Remember to keep it aerated if you intend to use it unfiltered and try to get it into your aquarium in less than three hours.

Don't forget, you may be adding things that you don't want to your tank. I'm not talking about pollution, I'm talking about potential parasites or unknown larvae. Most of the larvae won't survive but it's possible that something might -- maybe polychaete larvae?

Let us know if you spot any Caribbean fireworms a few weeks after your first water change with unfiltered NSW.

:eek3:

P.S. -- Don't the LFS down there filter the NSW before they sell it?

[Nemo Keeper]

I'll definitely keep that in mind. Didn't think I would get any parasites since I would be out in the open ocean as opposed to close to shore. You think maybe I should treat it with something before doing the water change?

[Ninong]

No, I don't think you should treat it with anything. Just keep it aerated until you get it into your aquarium and don't take too long to get it from the ocean to your tank.

Just because you don't see anything in the water doesn't mean there's nothing there. I'm not trying to influence you one way or the other. I'm just saying that the water is loaded with life.

[Nemo Keeper]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to try it out in my QT tank which I have to set up this weekend with a couple of "trial" fish and see what happens. I know this has been discussed before so I am only going to ask if anyone can send me the link to the forum that discusses setting up a QT. Thanks

[Ninong]

...send me the link to the forum that discusses setting up a QT. Thanks

Here.