I can't keep clown fish, and only clown fish

[chshwong]

Hello,

Background and setup:
i've been doing freshwater tanks for years and decided to try saltwater.
This is a 30-gallon FOWLR.
It has 40ish pounds of live rocks, cycled after a month.
I made a DIY 10gallon sump and a DIY protein skimmer for it. Temperature always between 26-27 celsius, with 2 submerged heaters, 1 in main, 1 in sump.
There is 1 Hydor Koralia # 1 for the water circulation.
I later added a Hydor Koralia Nano near the surface to increase water surface movement for oxygen.

It then has 2 cleaner shrimps, 3 hermit crabs, 3 turbo snails, and 1 lovely royal gramma.
All is well. Then 2 weeks later.

The story:
I bought 2 active little ocellaris clown fish. That's how they looked:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8587/…
This is how the tank looks like:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9561/…
But they would never eat, but i learned that it's normal when newly introduced. But after a week, they still wouldn't eat. I worried. I always tried Omega One Flakes. Finally later I tried frozen krills. I tried Omega One Pellets with garlic. I tried spirulina flakes. They would never eat. Finally after a week from introduction, the smaller fish died. The other one looked like this:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5022/im…
It looks ugly, the bottom fins were closed. (what does that mean?) Finally 3 days later, the second one died.
I've been checking my water daily, ammonia and nitrites are 0. Nitrates is low under 20. PH 8.2 Salt at 1.022-1.023. Temperature at 26-27. The Royal Gramma is so shy and never bothers those fish. The clowns just kept swimming still near glass and finally died. What could I have done better?

Finally, after a week of sadness, i spent money on 2 more clownfish, true spec this time, and bigger, from another store. Look:
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3272/…
Oh, and I got a yellowtail blue damsel too with them, a very small one. I rearranged the rocks after the first pair died btw, now that's my full tank:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1091/…

The problem persists, all fish swim around and eat, except these 2 clowns again!!
Today is my third night... the best they did was put something in the mouth.. then spit it back. Never swallowed. I tried Omega One Flakes, Omega One Pellets with garlic, Seaweed(the seller said they ate that as well as frozen food), and spectrum pellets. Beside the seaweed, all of the packages have clownfish in the labels haha.
Now this is how they look tonight, the fins are closed again.. ****:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9969/im…
Tomorrow night i will try frozen food.

*sigh*..
tell me what can i do? i assure you the other fish and inverts don't bother the clownfish. The water circulation, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, ph seem to be all fine.

Please help... and i know that these fish are not tank-bred. And when I purcahse them, they come from tanks with lots of other clown fish and nothing else (no corals).

Please tell me my next step...

[leebca]

Their introduction is something very different from what I use. I've never had one not eat. They are a member of the Damselfish family of marine fishes and as such, very hearty and usually eat the first day.

However I don't handle them like you do. First, I acclimate them like this:
It Was Acclimation, I know. . .

Then, on their way into the quarantine tank they get a FW dip like this:
Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes

I quarantine all my newly acquired fish, like this:
A Quarantine Process (step-by-step)

During quarantine and usually after a few days, I treat each Anemonefish for Brooklynellosis, a common disease of Anemonefishes. It's so common that it is one of the few fishes I would prophylactically treat as a matter of standard operating procedures. The treatment is found here: Formalin Treatment - Marine Fishes

Once they pass quarantine they are introduced into the display system. BUT I only introduce one fish every 6+ weeks to give a chance for the system to biologically adjust to the new bioload. By the time the fish gets into the new place, everything is fine. One Anemonefish is now 29 years old heading towards 30 years in captivity.

Last but not least, I don't offer or feed flake or pellet foods. I only provide frozen foods for omnivores, since that is what they are and follow the feeding guidelines found here:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

So unless you have control over your water quality and follow these guidelines: What is Water Quality I assume you're just not getting down the right procedure.

[chshwong]

damn.. coming from freshwater keeper... i didnt' realize quarantine was a must....


I just set up 2 hospital tanks.... 1 to treat my clownfish (1 already died) with hyposalinity (with extra bucket to do formaline treatment every other day),

and another hospital tank to hyposalinize the rest of the fish members.

While the main tank will only have invertebrates, and the ich should be gone after 30 days.

My only concern is, all I have is live rocks for bio filtration. I'm using them for my 2 quarantine tank. I hope the beneficial bacteria will survive hyposalinity ....

[leebca]

If you've already read the linked posts, then you need to go back and read them again.

It isn't 30 days -- it's 8 weeks = 56 days. An error will only put you back where you started. Be careful.

[chshwong]

Alright, i'll make it 2 months then hehe, thanks

just curious, now that i know i need to quarantine my all my new fish, how do you actualyl quarantine a Yellow Watchman Goby?
Do i actually need to create a sand bed? (cause that's a lot of work, but if it must...)

[chshwong]

Also, whenever you introduce a new Clownfish to a QT
is performing hyposalinity enough?

or you'd perform Formalin treatment anyway? (even if there's no sign of clownfish disease)

Thanks Lee!

[leebca]

Fishes that bury themselves either: 1) don't need to bury themselves during quarantine, or 2) can be provided a silica sand bowl.

You put silica (this is important -- silica -- pure silica) sand in a bowl about two or three times the size of the fish and as deep as the fish. The bowl goes inside the quarantine tank. I think you'll find this info in the post.

All Anemonefish that are wild caught, or are tank bred and that have come in contact with wild marine fishes, are given the treatment for Brook.

The question contains a reference to hyposalinity -- that is not a usual treatment for this condition, nor is it something you just do to all new fishes (of any kind). Make sure you read the directions carefully and follow them.

[chshwong]

Thanks a lot Lee,

Also, if I try to perform hyposalinity on all my fish/new fish member (that can withstand hypo) in my quarantine tank (no medicine), would the beneficial bacteria on the live rocks (or filter sponge) survive?

Say i do it gradually... going from 1.022 to 1.009 by 0.0015 a day.
I heard 2 versions:
1. They won't survive.
2. They will if done gradually like mentioned.

Can you tell me your experience?
Also, if you absolutely think the good bacteria won't survive, then can you tell me how you would do the biological filtering with doing hyposalinity for 6-8 weeks?
I read something about water change everyday, but I think that will sooo stressed the fish out, especially when the quarantine tank is relatively smaller than the display tank.

Thanks!

[leebca]

Everything you need to know is found here:
Hyposalinity Treatment

BUT, I still don't understand why you are performing a hyposalinity treatment.

[chshwong]

Hello Lee,

Ya, I've read that link several times before hehe, in facts, I've read tons of your great articles. They just keep popping up when i google.
But it wasn't very definite on the survival of the beneficial bacteria. I guess I should just treat the QT as if there's not good bacteria at all to be safe.

As to why I am performing HYPO treatment, I wanted to ensure that my fish, and all new fish have no marine ich once and for all. My Display Tank will run without fish for at least 2 months.
I don't want to use medicine as I read it's not as easy on the fish, and that hypo is more a natural way.
And since ich are not necessarily visible unless they are "pregnant", do you think it's a good practice to hypo treat all new fish mates for the right amount of time, instead of just observing with naked eyes for 4-10 weeks? (of course only on those that can withstand hyposalinity)
Let me know if I'm doing something wrong, or overdoing it.

Furthermore, your articles mentioned to never combined formalin treatment with hyposalinity treatment. I read otherwise in other sites that claim that is extremely effective. Is there a reason why you said not to?
Wouldn't it be much less effective if we allow free-swimming ich floating in the QT tank while doing formalin treatment, and then put the fish back into the QT?

Thanks!

[leebca]

Marine fish treatment and quarantine have to be kept in perspective. A few hobbyists think that more is better; a few hobbyists don't do anything. The middle path is the correct path. I recommend following the path that professionals follow.

Professionals (vets, marine aquarists, etc.) only treat fishes that are diseased.

Fishes are quarantined to determine if they are diseased, infected, injured, or in anyway abnormal, and trained to captive life (foods, eating, etc.).

That's the plan. If all fish a given a treatment for one disease, or for only one parasite, then what about the few dozen parasites and hundred other diseases? Do you see where I'm going? A hobbyist gets 'bitten by a leopard' and now 'sees spots everywhere.'

While treating for a disease or parasite that doesn't exist, how will the hobbyist be sure that the fish behavior isn't from some other disease or parasite? By keeping things as 'normal' as possible, abnormal behavior is much more easily noted.

In the particular form of treatment you're using (hyposalinity) there is another problem. Best shown by example, I think. Let's say the hypo treatment starts and it's now 1.008 sp. gr. The fish didn't have Marine Ich, but that's okay, you don't care. BUT now the fish shows another kind of disease or condition. The medication for that problem can't be used in a hyposaline solution. So now, it will take a week for the hypo water to return to normal. That's a week in delaying treatment for a condition the fish actually had. This time loss could be the matter of life or death.

Lastly, there is no treatment that doesn't pose some stress to the fish. So why add to their stress unless necessary? There are only a couple of exceptions to the above plan and I've laid them out clearly.

Formalin reactivity is sensitive to the pH of the water. In a hyposalinity situation, the low pH buffering ability of the water makes the chance for a pH shift much more likely. A shift in the pH can turn a Formalin treatment into a poison. Not worth the risk and certainly someone would have to explain to me why it would be needed to do both at the same time -- back to the premise that treatment is stressful in its own right. Also, the optimal use/benefit of a Formalin treatment is not a low-level long term treatment, but a high concentration bath.

Put simply, professionals don't do the above, why would hobbyists? unless hobbyists are 'seeing spots everywhere.'

[chshwong]

Thanks Lee,

Since you said only treat when you see something,
but would you do Formalin Treatment on clownfish anyway regardless?
Cause i think that's what the post you showed mentioned.

THanks!

[leebca]

Yes. I would and I do. It's just too prevalent for Anemonefishes to have this when they are wild, exposed to wild Anemonefishes, or held in tanks connected to wild caught fishes of any kind.