Renewal After Disaster

[mpentz]

I have recently experienced a dispiriting (and tragic) wipe-out of my 300 gal ("deep dimension") FOWLR marine aquarium and wanted Leebca's advice (and that of any other interested members) on my plan for renewal.

To briefly recount the tragedy, I had my stocking plan all the way to the final fish. Naso vlamingi (8"), Atlantic Blue Tang (4"), Salifin Tang (3.5"), Yellowhead Butteryflyfish (4.5"), Pink Tail Triggerfish (3.5") and Luna Wrasse (6"). I was following Bob Fenner's QT advice (two weeks - I know, much shorter than the Leebca recommendation) with success. The group had been thriving for many months. Last fish in was to be a Queen or Passer Angelfish. I found a perfect female Passer. She QT'ed well, and into the display tank she went. Strong social interactions ensued (primarily with the Atlantic blue tang), but no serious damage.

Then disease. Initially appeared to be Cryptocaryon, but I believe either Amyloodinium or Brooklynella also were involved. All remedial actions and treatments eventually failed. I lost all fish. The display tank is now almost three weeks into a planned fallow period of six weeks. (Ironically I have a thriving 90 gallon reef, including SPS, LPS and soft corals and five fish, which is supposed to be more difficult to maintain.)

I want to take at least one more shot, but am now extremely shy about new fish introductions. (I will not add more fish to the 90 gallon.)

So I'm thinking I will stock the 300 with just four fish that will become quite large and stop there, with stability as my No. 1 goal.

I have two questions.

First, I will now be using your 6-week QT procedure. Would it be safe for me to start each of the QTs with two weeks of Cupramine, followed by a number of Formalin baths, so I can be confident none of the three aforementioned diseases will be introduced?

Second (and relatedly, so you can consider medication sensitivities), the four fish I would choose are (i) Lyretail Grouper; (ii) Sohal Tang; (iii) another Pink Tail Triggerfish, and (iv) a Queen Angelfish. Do you think this group would work, long-term in the 300? In what order would you introduce them?

I would appreciate any comments you may pass along, and want to assure you that I do not take lightly the loss of precious aquatic life for which I am responsible.

Thank you.

[leebca]

If you read some of the stickies I have up, you'll find that all Tangs of the Acanthurus family are recommended by me for treatment of Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. The one treatment for both is copper -- Cupramine. Also reading the stickies, you'll find a recommendation that all Anemonefishes should be given a treatment for Brook. They just have it way too much. Lastly, if you read the stickies you'll find that all new acquisitions, on their way to the QT process, be given a FW bath.

There is no need to treat anything else and there is no reason to treat for things that aren't there. If you will perform the 6-week quarantine process diligently, you'll determine if any condition/disease is being carried by the new fish. No fish should have to go through a treatment without there being a specific need (other than the three things noted above). All can be treated without a concern of treatment sensitivity, although the Angel if an adult may suffer in general.

Sorry to say, the Sohal Tang is a hard fish for a community tank. You haven't got enough space for one. As they mature they get belligerent and just don't work out.

Adult large Angels don't acclimate very well. I'd raise the Queen Angel from a juvenile fish. When it gets to over 4", then I'd add the Grouper (smallish), and last the Trigger. The Sohal would be last if you insist upon it. But, that grouping, assuming you start off with small fish, will need a 500+ gallon tank in about 3-5 years or so.

Choosing fishes that grow large or swim great distances in the ocean (large Angels, Tangs, and Triggers) don't make good long term captive 'fellows.'

[mpentz]

Thanks, Lee -

I will perform baths as you recommend, and go with QT, exactly as in your stickies.

One point of clarification and a few related questions:

If I did not obtain a Sohal, would the 300 gal tank be large enough, long term? If so, is there another Tang you could recommend for this group that would work? Would that be the first fish in?

If the need to move up to 500 gal would not be eliminated by omitting the Sohal, can you suggest substitutions that would make the concept work in a 300? (E.g., Coral Hind, rather than Lyretail; Maculosus, rather than Queen).

Your help - both in the form of your reply and the many very helpful stickies you have posted - is very much appreciated.

[leebca]

If you want to restrict yourself to the 300, then you pretty much have to abandon your desire for Large Angelfish. The Maculosus reaches over 14" in captivity! Not going to work for a 300 after it is about 5" then it will outgrow the 500 at about 8".

You can keep a juvenile Angelfish of the large variety and even a small young adult, but then what will you do when it outgrows the tank? Some of the large Angels, like the Girdled/Navarchus have adult patterns while small and grow slowly and not as large as some of the others. There are a couple more like this, but I leave it to you to find them. Just do the Google; or get a fish book.

A young Brown or Blue, Convict, Yellow, etc. Tang would do well in that tank for quite some time. But if fed properly and cared for, they will outgrow it -- but that will take many years.

So, you see, the Sohal doesn't push the tank larger -- the others will eventually too. In this case, the Sohal just has a poor disposition for a community tank.

I don't give recommendations for fishes since it is (to me) a very personal choice. Just gather the information regarding their known adult size in captivity or if there is no such info, then their known largest size in the wild.

You might find this post useful in some of your decision making: Fish Stocking Limit - for FO and FOWLR

Whatever you do, definitely don't go by tank sizes recommended in books and on retail sites from the Internet.

You're more than welcome. . .

[mpentz]

Lee -

Thanks for your frank advice. Your comment that I should not rely upon "minimum tank volume" quotes in books or on websites makes me think about contributing to the thread about why folks quit the hobby, though I don't intend to do so.

It appears from your comments that, as successful as my tank seemed to be before I introduced the Passer Angel, it was not viable long-term - and indeed the Naso vlamingi (at 8") had already reached its limit in a 300. This is a wake-up call to a freshwater hobbyist who's been at it for decades (I still keep Tanganyikans - Tropheus, Petrochromis and Cyphotilapia frontosa in three large tanks.) It's amazing that the largest standard-production glass tank (the 300) is small for the marine fish I most favor.

I fear your advice would be that no Naso can be suitable long-term for a 300, not even a Naso literatus. Is that right? If so, very disappointing. These are wonderful fishes.

I understand your position against recommending particular species. If you don't mind, I will run by you another proposed stocking plan for the 300 when I've figured it out - trying to keep your advice in mind.

Thanks again.

[leebca]

What usually happens is that hobbyists don't feed their Naso Tangs properly. They grow very large and make-up a large portion of food fishes for locals living near where they swim. When fed properly, they can put on an inch every few months, leaving little time for being in a small aquarium. I have kept a few in my 300, starting when they were under 4", but they outgrow it soon and end up being donated to public or private aquariums.

The Brown and Blue Tangs seem to do better. They grow much slower, even when fed properly. The Acanthurus family does seem to suit the 300 better, for longer. Still, it is disappointing.

[mpentz]

OK. I've scaled back my size concepts, but 300 gallon DT fallow for six weeks now, QT is cycled. Time to start to stock. Here's my proposed list (with options). Please comment on long-term viability. Thanks in advance.

Chaetodon semilarvatus (Golden Butterflyfish)
or Chaetodon falcula (Falcula Butterflyfish)
or Chaetodon ulietensis (Doublesaddle Butterflyfish)
Ctenochaetus strigosus (Kole’s Tang)
or Ctenochaetus tominiensis (Yellow-tip Bristletooth)
or Ctenochaetus marginatus (Spotted Bristletooth)
or Ctenochaetus binotatus (Two-spot Bristletooth)
Acanthurus pyroferus (Chocolate Surgeonfish)
or Acanthurus nigricans (White-cheek Surgeonfish)
or Acanthurus coeruleus (Atlantic Blue Tang)
Siganus vulpinus (Foxface Rabbitfish)
or Siganus maginifcus (Magnificent Rabbitfish)
Coris gaimard (Yellowtail Coris)
Pomacanthus navarchus (Bluegirdled Angelfish)
Xanthichthys auromarginatus (Bluechin Triggerfish)
or Xanthichthys mento (Crosshatch Triggerfish)

[leebca]

I would avoid the Magnificent Rabbitfish. They grow amazingly fast and would outgrow that tank quickly.

Triggers in general don't make for a very good community fish with Butterflyfishes. You do know the one you've chosen reaches over 14" in captivity, right? After a while, they hog the food. And since you have several Butterflyfishes, this isn't a good combo. Butterflyfishes and Angelfishes often don't eat fast or eat a lot at one feeding, so their companions in a community tank need to be more sublime and/or slower eaters. Save the Trigger for a predatory tank.

This is all just generalities. There are many exceptions!

[mpentz]

OK, Lee, no triggers at all.

Magnificent Rabbitfish out as well. Did that advice also apply to the Foxface Rabbitfish?

Finally, as I am about to adopt your dip/bath protocol, but am too worried about fishes leaping out of a colander arrangement, I'm going to go with the sea salt bucket and net approach. Does that include a rinse stage (i.e., two buckets in succession, the first for the methylene blue dip, the second for a quick rinse before placement in the QT)? Any other notable differences from the colander approach?

Thanks again. I'm determined to get it right this time.

Marty

[leebca]

Marty,

You're to be commended for your efforts. Always cover the container any fish is in and that includes through the FW dip process, as indicated in the post.

The Foxface is not as fast a grower and grows not as large as the Magnificent. It should be fine for many years in the 300 if you obtain one under 4".

There is a rinse dip after the bath, then into the QT. Net is least preferred because it does in fact hurt the fish -- in the least it will disrupt their mucous coating, in the max it could cause rips, tears, or scale damage. If you don't use colanders, then stick to the process and use the net. There are no differences.

[mpentz]

Lee -

We're underway! I acquired a nice young Kole Tang (perhaps 2.25") and used your dip procedure for the first time. I even went with the no-net colander (actually, salad spinner!) technique. Dip went for 25 min. Went well! This after the "expert" at the LFS told me a 1 min. freshwater dip would kill the fish. These people mean well, I think.

My only comment on the dip procedure is that I wish I had buffered the RO/DI water before bringing the fish home. My pH tester (Milwaukee) is downright misleading out of its range (7 to 10) and it was a major struggle to get the right number (.1 less than the QT water) until I had used marine buffer to get the pH into the right ballpark. I'll buffer the water in advance next time.

Now to induce a feeding response. A long QT for Ctenochaetus sp. has always concerned me because they are grazers mostly, frozen mysis eaters as a hobby. Instant Ocean has a new Seaweed Grazing Block product. Might this be a good idea in the otherwise lifeless QT?

Thanks for giving me confidence that I can start again and succeed.

[leebca]

The perception of a FW dip has so many different opinions that it is somewhat mind boggling. Some fish don't do well with it -- but none that I have so far handled. It isn't a matter of a kind of fish (a species). It is sometimes just a particular fish won't deal with the handling very well. But if you monitor closely you can spot those and stop the bath -- no harm done.

The FW bath procedure is used by some of the professional aquarists and public aquariums. Some aquariums have even tried keeping their fish at 1.011 sp. gr. units for years with no negative effect on the fish. Anyways. . .I digress. Sorry.

I'm not familiar with the 'block' product you mention. My goal is to get all hobbyists to read the label and make up their own mind. I would question how the block is held together. If land products like wheat, gluten, etc. are used to hold the block together, forget it.

Do your best with frozen/thawed mysis and gut loaded brine, switching in with frozen food preparations as soon as you can. There are many 'tricks' to use and consider if you have problems: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...-eat-tips.html

Good luck!

[mpentz]

Lee -

I thought I'd comment on my experience with a six-week quarantine, now that the Kole Tang is in the 300 gal. DT.

The fish remained healthy throughout, though it was difficult to train it to accept new foods. Loved cyclops from the start, and I never saw it eat much of anything else. Also, it did not like the PVC elbows, and chose to hide in the corner instead. Very skittish in the QT. Not at home.

That said, the personality of the fish changed overnight (literally) in the DT, which has a lush microalgae growth on the live rock (after being fallow for 11 weeeks). He's grazing constantly, is much less shy, and seems very happy. (I still don't know what new foods he will take, but suspect he could live on the grazing alone for a while.)

Meanwhile, your strongly held views about fish/tank size lead me to a different question. I have a wonderful Chevron Tang in in my 90 gal. reef. It is now about 4 inches long and 3 inches tall. Am I going to have to transfer it into the 300? If so, at what size?

Looking forward to your response, and to my next acquisition (and acclimation/dip procedure and six-week quarantine) for the 300!

Marty

[leebca]

Marty,

The Chevron Tang should be in a tank that is 6 feet long when it gets to be about 4" long. The length is measured from the base of the tail to the nose tip. These Tangs don't grow very fast so it should be good in a long tank for a few years.

The new Kole may be eating and grazing now, but ultimately will need to feed on prepared and offered foods. If it forgets how to eat prepared foods, it may perish. Keep trying to feed it, don't change the habit.

The 'comfort' of a new fish is much to do with its ability to acclimate, and how much time the hobbyist spends with the fish, getting it used to a human care giver.

Good luck!

[mpentz]

Lee -

First, the good news. I was fortunate to obtain a fine specimen of Chaetodon semilartatus. Went through a 25-min. methylene blue freshwater dip with flying colors and is beginning his 6-week quarantine, eating all foods offered.

Now the bad. The Kole Tang was doing great in the 300 DT, not just grazing, but accepting Spirulina-enhanced brine shrimp and cyclops. Was 100% fine last night. This evening I came home to discover him in the location he usually sleeps being agressively consumed by bristle worms.

The worm population of the DT exploded during the 12+ week fallow period. Delbeek and Sprung say bristle worms sometimes attack small sleeping fish.

Obviously, I want to address whatever the problem is before the time comes to move the semilarvatus to the DT. What do you recommend?

Thanks in advance.

Marty

[leebca]

Small bristleworms are not usually a problem (for small fish). Are you talking about worms over 4" in length?

I'd lean towards a lack of full acclimation. The fish was not behaving properly from the start. No fish 'in it's right mind' hides in the open, like the corner of a QT/DT.

There is a chance it ate something that it had a problem with, which is what some captive fish will do when they are very hungry or driven by not being properly nourished.

[mpentz]

Lee -

The bristleworms were small, so your theory about acclimation probably is correct.

I spent some time today with your "Is the Fish Healthy?" sticky, focusing on the "Should I Buy that Fish?" section. Clearly, selection is critical.

The semilarvatus acclimation is going great. He already rushes to the front of the tank when he sees me.

Time to de-worm.

Thanks.

Marty

[mpentz]

Lee -

I started the de-worming, using PraziPro per instructions.

Unfortunately, however, I'm beginning to see signs I don't like with the semilarvatus.

He was twitching this morning and his respiration rate seemed to be up. Do these signs suggest Marine Velvet to you? Should I begin a Cupramine treatment? Can such a treatment proceed simultaneously with the PraziPro?

This is discouraging.

[leebca]

Marine Velvet would usually have killed the fish by the time you read this reply. The parasite, when present, multiplies quickly and kills very fast.

You can properly diagnose MV however. You give the fish a FW dip, following the sticky instructions EXCEPT the dip is only for 5 minutes. You then check the bottom of the dip container. Marine Velvet parasites, though small, when grouped together, can be seen by the unaided human eye.

The signs you've reported are also the same signs of a slip of water quality. Make sure this is in top order.

I would refrain from treatment with copper unless I was confident it was necessary. It is a poison, to parasite and to our fish and a treatment does shorten the fish's lifespan.

[mpentz]

Lee -

Great advice as always. When I returned home last evening, the twitching had stopped, breathing was fine. My theory is that the PraziPro is doing its job - perhaps on a gill fluke? (I'd have thought the 25 minute methylene blue dip, which did seem to produce some interesting looking items (creatures?) would have caught a fluke, but in any event things are looking up.) No copper - for now anyway.

Marty

P.S. Are you writing a book on marine fishkeeping? There's none out there now with the quality of advice that you give (with all due respect to The Conscientious Marine Aquarist). Hope you're at least considering it!