Lost a angelfish...literally... Also having trouble with PH

[Pink4289]

I literally lost my Bi-color angel fish. I haven't seen it in 3-4days. I have not seen it feed or even swim. I checked the filter, and moved around the rocks a bit and still nothing(but when I move the rocks too much sand kicks up and clouds the water then I can't see anything)
I currently have 2 other angels, a coral beauty and fire angelfish and they are swimming and eating just fine. Where has my fish gone? Is he being very shy? Likewise when I started my tank about 2 weeks ago I put in a cleaner shrimp....he is nowhere to be found either....I saw him the first few days and now I see him never. I'm seriously confused?!

My PH is at a steady 7.8. I have been adding PH increaser but by the next day it has fallen back to 7.8 again. Why is my PH not staying or even getting to 8.2-8.4?
Likewise my Nitrates and Amonia are high. (I think my filter is to blame since it is not filtering well and it's cheap...) I bought a new filter and have been adding Amonia remover and "helpful bacteria" to the tank to lower the nitrates and amonia. My tank WAS cycled for 2weeks and all the readings were perfect when the fish were added.
Also I have been feeding probley more than my 2 angelfish need. But I noticed my fire angelfish picking at one of my star poylps so I'm trying to fill him up so he has no room to munch on my coral...good idea or bad idea?

Thanks for the help...as you can see I NEED it!

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

The best advise I can give you is to slow WAY down. Seems likely that in 2 weeks, you're cycle isn't finished or you caused another cycle by moving too fast, too soon. How big is the tank? 3 angels most likely wont do well together unless its a fairly large tank. Ammonia means the tank is cycling ( or cycling again). Tell us more about the tank and equipment. Do you have live rock? How much? Was it cured before adding it? How did you cycle the tank? The shrimp is probably dead.Have you checked on the floor around the tank for the lost fish? I could have jumped out. Adding the " helpful bacteria " probably wont do anything. The bacteria need food and time to establish and stabilize. There's a really good article on Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium that should be followed for the best chance of success. IME, Ph does some bouncing around during cycling. The best way to stabilize Ph is after a solid cycle, using a balanced 2 part suppliment (calcium, alkalinity and magnesium). Ph buffer is just about useless as you found out. Its always risky to have angels with corals, even if they are well fed.Get back to us with more details and maybe we can be of some help.

[Pink4289]

The best advise I can give you is to slow WAY down. Seems likely that in 2 weeks, you're cycle isn't finished or you caused another cycle by moving too fast, too soon. How big is the tank? 3 angels most likely wont do well together unless its a fairly large tank. Ammonia means the tank is cycling ( or cycling again). Tell us more about the tank and equipment. Do you have live rock? How much? Was it cured before adding it? How did you cycle the tank? The shrimp is probably dead.Have you checked on the floor around the tank for the lost fish? I could have jumped out. Adding the " helpful bacteria " probably wont do anything. The bacteria need food and time to establish and stabilize. There's a really good article on Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium that should be followed for the best chance of success. IME, Ph does some bouncing around during cycling. The best way to stabilize Ph is after a solid cycle, using a balanced 2 part suppliment (calcium, alkalinity and magnesium). Ph buffer is just about useless as you found out. Its always risky to have angels with corals, even if they are well fed.Get back to us with more details and maybe we can be of some help.

it's 30gal tank. I have 19-22lbs of live rock and live sand. The tank did finish cycling as all the nitrates and Amonia was at 0 when I added the fish...
The rock was bought from a saltwater fish store and it was being stored in water so not sure if it was cured or not.
The shrimp could have died and been eaten by the fish but the Bicolor angel fish was much to large to be eaten by it tankmates. The rocks have lots of hiding places and the fish never fought.

Actually I think the tank cycled 2 1/2 weeks.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Would you object to returning all the livestock and starting over? If I'm coming across harsh or unreasonable, I apologize and don't mean to. Sometimes its better to cut your losses and start fresh to avoid a long or expensive " learning lesson" that could ruin the hobby for someone. 30 gallon tanks are better suitable for a couple of small fish ( like percula or oscillaris clownfish). The three angels, although dwarfs are (IMO) much to much for that small of a tank. Adding them is what likely caused another cycle because the biological filter couldn't handle the large load. The missing fish could still be alive but you'll probably continue to have tank problems until they ( the fish) or you give up. Maybe even consider starting a larger tank? I don't know... just tossing out some ideas.

[Original Fin]

That's a tough lesson to learn, the cycling thing.
There is more to it than waiting till ammonia and nitrites hit zero. I don't doubt that your tank may have reached this stage in 2.5 weeks...that's within the realm of possibility. It's still not stabile enough to shock the biofilter in such a way with that heavy of a load all at once.

What I would have recommended you do would be to wait another couple weeks before adding your 1 small fish. Then wait another 6
Weeks before the next. Realistically, that tank is only good for 3 small fish max, but two would be a better conservative approach. Smaller than dwarf angels.

I agree with FoMoCoTech on the dwarf angels...that tank is far too small for three of those all together. Even if your biofilter was up to the task, they would fight and harass eachother to death.

You also should have 30-45 lbs of live rock, and think about ditching whatever other filter it is that you have running. Running carbon in that filter would be ok, provided you change it frequently enough and do a good job rinsing the fines beforehand. But any type of biomedia should be removed as they cause nitrate issues.
A protein skimmer is much more important than a powerfilter, especially if you are going to stock heavy and you intend to keep nitrate sensitive inverts.


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[Pink4289]

I listened to the guy at the fish store. He told me 3 of these small angels would be fine. He also suggest only about 12-15lbs of live rock and I'm the one who wanted more. He really sounded like he knew what he was talking about... The angels don't seem to fight since there are plenty of hiding places and I thought that would do.

I found the angelfish...or what was left. I think he somehow got himself wedged in the holes in the interior of my biggest rock and got stuck;or he just went there to die. Not much was left of him. Could this have also caused the amonia and nitrates to spike?

It also now looks like my Xenia coral is dead. The "hands" are retracted and now turning very pale color. The star polyps don't look far behind. They are retracted all the time now.



I started the 30gal because I did not have the money to invest in a bigger tank at this time. I was planning to use this tank to"get the hang" of saltwater before going bigger(and to have time to save up some money)


These are the readings from my tank tonight, and I'm surprised the fish aren't dead right now too...
PH: 8.0
NH3+4: 8.0
NO-3: 40
NO-2: 1.0
Calcium: 360
KH- 71.6(maybe a tad less. I dropped two drops by accident at the same time)

So what to do? The fish store is literally 45min away from my house.So driving there frequently to get things one at a time is very tedious.
Could I set up a smaller 10gal tank and use one of my 2 remaining fish to cycle that water?
Also my father made me a tank cover with a metal hinge for the tank. All the premade ones they sell in stores don't seem to fit. I noticed rusting of the long hinges and bolts. It got really bad about 4days ago and that is when I removed it and came to terms that I'd just have to watch the water and salinty/gravity level carefully because the water will evaporate quicker. Could this rust have caused harm to the fish and corals? I tried covering the bolts with clear nailpolish to seal them but the rust was too bad already.

ARGH! So frustrated! It is suppose to be THIS hard to get a tank running smoothly?

[Pink4289]

help?

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

I recommend removing and returning your livestock before they all end up dead. Using a live fish to cycle a tank is a dated practice and isn't (or shouldn't be) common anymore. If you plan on keeping the fish and corals in during the cycle, the livestock is just about doomed. It's not really difficult to start a marine tank, unless you're given wrong or bad advice. It takes a massive amount of research and just as much patience. Believe it or not, the smaller the tank, the harder it is. The added water volume of bigger tanks aids in stability and gives you extra time when things start to go wrong. If money is the issue, you could abandon the use of the 30g and while you save for a bigger tank, you could do the hours and hours, day and days of research needed to start and maintain a marine tank. Weather you pinch pennies or not, this hobby is not going to be cheap. It's more about making sure your green is well spent. Even if it means more upfront cost.

[Pink4289]

I recommend removing and returning your livestock before they all end up dead. Using a live fish to cycle a tank is a dated practice and isn't (or shouldn't be) common anymore. If you plan on keeping the fish and corals in during the cycle, the livestock is just about doomed. It's not really difficult to start a marine tank, unless you're given wrong or bad advice. It takes a massive amount of research and just as much patience. Believe it or not, the smaller the tank, the harder it is. The added water volume of bigger tanks aids in stability and gives you extra time when things start to go wrong. If money is the issue, you could abandon the use of the 30g and while you save for a bigger tank, you could do the hours and hours, day and days of research needed to start and maintain a marine tank. Weather you pinch pennies or not, this hobby is not going to be cheap. It's more about making sure your green is well spent. Even if it means more upfront cost.

So if I'm understanding right I started a new cycle by adding too many fish at once? Would I have been better off adding one fish every 2weeks and then adding the corals the same way?I did so much research before beginning my tank and now I feel like I know nothing...And the fact the guy at the store told me everything would be fine really pisses me off.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Gotta be careful about where you get your advice. One thing to remember is that when it comes to taking advice from people who intend to make money off of you, its best to do so with a grain of salt. Its also a good idea to validate any information you receive by additional research. Not all fish stores will give you bad advice but it really depends on who you talk to and what there motive is. Forums like Reefland tend to be more reliable because no one here is trying to turn a profit off of you. Most of us are fanatics of the hobby and like to help others have similar success. Once the cycle is complete ( verified by accurate test results) , you should wait a couple of weeks before adding a clean up crew. After that, wait a few more weeks and introduce your first fish. Wait some more and add another. See the pattern. Going slow is very important. Even more so on small tanks.For my 75g , I wait a minimum of 6 weeks between adding fish. There are 2 reasons. First, I want to allow for the tanks biological filter ( bacteria ) to adjust to the additional bio load and second, I use a 6 week quarantine process for all new fish.Quarantining new fish helps prevent disease in the display tank, allows for the new fish to get acclimated to captivity ( many are plucked from the ocean) and gives me time to train the fish to eat prepared foods. All of these things make running the display tank easier and more enjoyable. Corals don't need to be added as slow because they don't have as big a bio load as fish do but taking your time between adds would be a bad thing either. If you don't plan on quarantining corals, be sure to dip them in something like an iodine bath and inspect them closely for bad hitchhikers. I didn't do that and got flatworms, aptasia, and hydroids. Check out this link: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium you should do/ know about setting up a marine tank is there. I followed those steps and had a smooth cycle. Mine took about 8 weeks before it was ready for a clean up crew.

[Original Fin]

To touch on your question about the rusty hinges, yes, that can be harmful to the tank if it gets into it.

Some metals are extremely poisonous when mixed with your tank water. Copper being the biggest concern. Since copper can be mixed into certain alloys, and used in certain electroplating processes, I always assume any metal has a potential to do harm, and try to keep them from entering the tank, or weeping oxidation into it.

Nail polish could be even worse, but I'm just guessing on that. Generally speaking, you want to keep chemicals with strong odors like that from getting anywhere near your water. Especially those that come in spray bottles or aerosols. You want everyone that lives in your home to be aware of that. Using furntiure polish, bug sprays/bombs, etc in the area of the tank can poison it.

[Pink4289]

So what is the consensus? Take the fish back to the store and wait for my tank to cycle again? Then ad fish one at a time over the course of the next few months?

Honestly the fish seem well. They are eating and swimming fine. I'm going to do a 1/2 tank water change tomorrow to try to bring down the amonia and nitrates because if I lose my star polyp coral I'm going to be pissed!

[Original Fin]

Some fish can "survive" the cycling process, but it's absolutely harmful to them. Their gills will get burned for one thing, and that can lead to other complications that may not necessarily cause immediate death, but it can take months/years off of their lives.

Returning the fish is the right thing to do...that's my vote. The tank has already started cycling, removing the fish will not stop that. Marine fishkeeping requires a lot of patience. The rate at which you add your fish is no exception.


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[FoMoCo Master Tech]

If You do decide to keep the fish, perform much larger water changes ( at least 80%). Doing a 50% water change will only reduce toxins by 50%. You'll have to do the water changes often too. Try to aim for undetectable ammonia and nitrites. Its going to require much more effort that removing the livestock though.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Just as a FYI, niteATES aren't really a big problem for fish. Corals are a different story. NitrITES are bad for both fish and coral.

[leebca]

Pink,

I'm just reading your original post and not the other posts. Just wondering if you've figured out the pH issue. pH is controlled by three chemicals in the water: calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. If those three are balanced (not just within their ranges, but BALANCED), then the pH settles into its correct place. You can get more info on this from about the middle of this post: What is Water Quality.

[Pink4289]

Pink,

I'm just reading your original post and not the other posts. Just wondering if you've figured out the pH issue. pH is controlled by three chemicals in the water: calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. If those three are balanced (not just within their ranges, but BALANCED), then the pH settles into its correct place. You can get more info on this from about the middle of this post: What is Water Quality.

Yes I actually JUST red that last night and that more than likely explains the issue!

[Pink4289]

If You do decide to keep the fish, perform much larger water changes ( at least 80%). Doing a 50% water change will only reduce toxins by 50%. You'll have to do the water changes often too. Try to aim for undetectable ammonia and nitrites. Its going to require much more effort that removing the livestock though.

Will performing these water changes so often let the natural bacteria to be able to grow?(isn't that part of the cycling process?) How often should I change 80% of the water?

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

The reason I suggested doing this (if you don't plan on removing the fish) is because ammonia is highly toxic. The fact that you're mid cycle is secondary to this ( at least, in my eyes). So the advice I'm giving pertains to the well being of the livestock, rather than the cycle.the reason ammonia is high is because the bacteria population isn't strong enough to convert the toxins. Performing large water change dilutes the amount of toxins in the water but wont completely eliminate it ( because you're livestock is always producing waste). It may or may not lengthen the cycle but one thing is sure. Its poisoning the fish. By doing frequent, large water changes, you can provide the livestock some relief from the toxins and the bacteria should still be able to multiply over time ( catch up to the bio load). When the biological filter stopped working in my quarantine tank, I had to change 80-90% of the water twice daily for almost a week before ammonia and nitrites were constantly undetectable. The water changes should be done anytime ammonia and/ nitrites are registering on a test. That might mean multiple times daily, once daily, or even less frequently. It all depends on the test results. Doing something like this is a daunting task, which is why I suggested removing the fish until the cycle has run its course.

[Pink4289]

The reason I suggested doing this (if you don't plan on removing the fish) is because ammonia is highly toxic. The fact that you're mid cycle is secondary to this ( at least, in my eyes). So the advice I'm giving pertains to the well being of the livestock, rather than the cycle.the reason ammonia is high is because the bacteria population isn't strong enough to convert the toxins. Performing large water change dilutes the amount of toxins in the water but wont completely eliminate it ( because you're livestock is always producing waste). It may or may not lengthen the cycle but one thing is sure. Its poisoning the fish. By doing frequent, large water changes, you can provide the livestock some relief from the toxins and the bacteria should still be able to multiply over time ( catch up to the bio load). When the biological filter stopped working in my quarantine tank, I had to change 80-90% of the water twice daily for almost a week before ammonia and nitrites were constantly undetectable. The water changes should be done anytime ammonia and/ nitrites are registering on a test. That might mean multiple times daily, once daily, or even less frequently. It all depends on the test results. Doing something like this is a daunting task, which is why I suggested removing the fish until the cycle has run its course.

ok I will be taking the fish back tomorrow. Should I raise a stink to the manager since he TOLD me it'd be ok to add this many fish? They are literally the only saltwater store within an hour's drive so I don't want to burn my bridges but at the same time I have $100 of livestock dead from his advice...
So I take the fish back and wait for all the readings to go down right? Then I'll following the 'Setting up a FOWLR Aquarium' article on here and add one at a time and add my hardy cleaner crew first and very gradually build up to my fish! Sound like a plan?