Dose fish only tank with copper?

[montipora]

Hi guys, my 55 gallon fish only tank has a small ich outbreak and i don't have the option of a hospital tank.
I'm going to use Mardel Coppersafe, my question is, does anything in my tank react bad to copper?
1 dwarf zebra lion fish, 1 snowflake moray eel, 1 niger trigger, 1 six line wrasse, 2 green spotted puffers, 1 dragon wrasse.
Any constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Side note, nitrates 10, nitrites 0, ammonia 0, SG .023.

[Reefing Madness]

Your fish won't have a reaction to it, no. Live Rock oraganisms will. And it will also get into your glass. What kind of outbreak and how bad is it that you think you have to dose right now? Not to mention who has it in that tank? The Trigger, if I had to guess?
Also, if your going to throw in Copper, have you thought about doing a Hypo on the entire tank instead?
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyp...posalinity.htm

[montipora]

The lion fish has a few spots and so does the dragon wrasse, i only have like 10lbs of LR in that tank so im not worried about that, and the tank itself is old and scratched up really bad, when i move they will be put in a 100 gallon acrilic tank and the 55 will be thrown away. I have been having ich problems with this tank for quite a while, which is one of the reasons i moved my reef to my 29 gallon. So im not taking this outbreak lightly and just seeing what happens. I already decided to dose it with about 75% of what it says to use, guess ill see what happens. Thanks for the input.

[leebca]

There is really no such thing as a 'small' outbreak. That's like saying 'a littlbe bit pregnanet.' You should read this post (given below) and follow its recommendations. You can easily obtain one or more smaller tanks for hospital tanks that you can sell or give away later as Christmas gifts. Their expense is not that much, but at least one should be kept as a quarantine tank to avoid this in the future.

If this isn't an option, consider having someone else care for these fishes to their recovery. In the long run, the quarantine/hospital tank is really a part of the FOWLR hobby. If you switch to a reef tank without fishes, you can avoid the fish diseases, parasites, etc.

Curing Fish of Marine Ich

Good luck!

[Reefing Madness]

What do you mean no such thing as a small outbreak?? I had an outbreak, small, one fish out of 10. Thats a small outbreak. My other fish did not contract the nasty stuff. The other fish being Tangs. I'd call that a small outbreak. And I dosed oraganics in the DT with Reef Coral in it. I lost nothing, including the Hippo who started the whole thing. Small outbreak is in the eye of the beholder, not on a sheet of paper.

[leebca]

If each of your fish were examined properly under a microscope and found free of the parasite I may reconsider the fact that when one fish is infected, all fish are. Too much evidence (scientific) has been found that when one fish in a group displays, the other fishes are infected. Just because it doesn't display doesn't mean the fish isn't infected. This is quite common and the main reason why it doesn't go away.

I have conducted a few hundred inspections of 'non displaying fishes' from an infected tank and in each case but 5% have found the fish to be infected, but not displayed. One fish displaying means that all fish need treatment and need to be considered as infected.

It would be unwise and foolish to purchase/acquire a fish that was not displaying, in a tank where there was a fish displaying Marine Ich.

[Reefing Madness]

The reaons it doesn't go away, is most don't know exactly what it is.
To which I post:
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

[Housen]

I have met Steve and he regrets some of his earlier articles because he's learned more about the topics as time goes on. That's an article you quoted, which was written a while back. Lee's experience is current and if you check out his bio, based on scientific, experimentation, and continued education. He has the data that Steve doesn't have. Now, having said this I can verify what Lee has said to be true. I had marine ich in my tank early on, before quarantining fish. Two fish displayed, which I put together in a tank to treat. The others eventually displayed and I ended up treating them. The difference would be the ability to look for the bug on the fish itself rather than taking anecdotal information. Steve doesn't do that kind of studies. Just my small input on this topic which I've had some anecdotal information which supports the science Lee has mentioned.

[leebca]

I agree that many hobbyists don't understand Marine Ich, but I don't see anywhere in that article which would support the concnept that only visually infected fishes should be treated or that an outbreak is confined to only those fishes which display. Maybe you can point me to the text from which you find supportive of this concept?

Steven and I go way back -- many years when he had his own fish maintenance business. My first hand knowledge comes from skin scrapings, fin and gill clips from fishes in a tank that don't display. Magnified the parasites are detected by micropsy. Professional aquarists also find this. Besides their own quaratnine routine, skin scraping, fin and gill clippings are taken to ID this and other parasites. They can find parasites before they get to large numbers to become visually displaying.

In a tank of mixed fishes, when one or more display, there is about a 95% chance that all fishes have been infected or soon will be. The confines of a tank make for a banquet of fish for this and many other parasites.

[Reefing Madness]

I agree that many hobbyists don't understand Marine Ich, but I don't see anywhere in that article which would support the concnept that only visually infected fishes should be treated or that an outbreak is confined to only those fishes which display. Maybe you can point me to the text from which you find supportive of this concept?

Steven and I go way back -- many years when he had his own fish maintenance business. My first hand knowledge comes from skin scrapings, fin and gill clips from fishes in a tank that don't display. Magnified the parasites are detected by micropsy. Professional aquarists also find this. Besides their own quaratnine routine, skin scraping, fin and gill clippings are taken to ID this and other parasites. They can find parasites before they get to large numbers to become visually displaying.

In a tank of mixed fishes, when one or more display, there is about a 95% chance that all fishes have been infected or soon will be. The confines of a tank make for a banquet of fish for this and many other parasites.

Not everyone cares to have a PHD in keeping a Reef tank.

[chrisfont23]

Lee, of the fish that didn't visually present, but you found to have ich... when the symptoms of the fish that did present abated, did you find all the (non-presenting) others did too?

[montipora]

Ok first off, i know exactly how ich works, by "small out break" i ment 2 of the fish had a few spots, no need to be a smart ass about it. The reason i don't do a hospital tank is that i simply do not have enough room right now, i have four 10 gallon tanks, a 20 long, and a 38 that are not in use, if i had the room i would do it. I do not have any friends or family that have tanks i could add them too ether. The only thing i asked is if any of those fish are weak against copper, so to those who answered my question, thank you. Everything has cleared up and is doing great so far.

[leebca]

chrisfont23,

Didn't really do that kind of study in debpth. When the fish displaying were removed for treatment, the other fishes would eventually display or continued to show infection. What you're alluding to is fish immunity and that is a very interesting subject of its own.

[leebca]

montipora,

Sorry if I cam across as 'smart ass.' In this media of posting/writing we can't see other's faces and expressions. I was trying to be light and humerous about it, like the pregnant bit. However, I can see how it could be taken with offense. None was intended.

[chrisfont23]

chrisfont23,

Didn't really do that kind of study in debpth. When the fish displaying were removed for treatment, the other fishes would eventually display or continued to show infection. What you're alluding to is fish immunity and that is a very interesting subject of its own.

I only ask b/c my Tang had ich at a young age. Basically, upon introduction to the aquarium. I didn't quarantine, which was subsequently a poor decision and one I learned from wholeheartedly. But onto the topic. The Tang presented. Normal visible signs on the skin as well as flashing and the sort. None of the other fish showed physical signs or any type of flashing, non-eating etc., that I believed would be consistent with ich. The Tang came through in about a month. As for the other fish, the jury is still out. Did they have ich? I would assume - but the characteristics and such remained consistent throughout the Tang's bout. Just found it interesting and figured I would pose the question to one of the experts.

Thanks Lee...

[montipora]

montipora,

Sorry if I cam across as 'smart ass.' In this media of posting/writing we can't see other's faces and expressions. I was trying to be light and humerous about it, like the pregnant bit. However, I can see how it could be taken with offense. None was intended.

It's not a problem lee, sorry i got so irritated about it, i was having a bad day in the first place, lol.

But yes, i also do believe that fish can build up an immunity to it, i have had my six line wrasse for a long time and he has been in tanks with fish that ALL died from ich / velvet and he did get it a little bit right when i got him, but since then he has never showed any signs of it, even weeks after every fish in the tank died.
(The whole tank dying thing was me being a noob, didn't really know what i was doing yet, and i was constantly adding new fish, live rock and corals, messing with the rock work and using crappy tap water. Pretty much everything you can think of to cause a lot of stress. Everyone learns from their mistakes =P.)