New reef tank

[mikeinsac2001]

Okay, forgive me for not having the patience to go through 60k posts to culminate the answers to my questions. So instead, I am asking for your patience in reading this lengthy email to answer the questions specific to my circumstances.

I am fortunate enough to have a beautiful corner office that is just crying for an aquarium. I had a reef tank about 10 years ago set up on a standard wet/dry system that I built myself. Lost everything during a power outage while on vacation. Eventually sold everything for beer money, so now I'm starting from scratch again.

The place I am looking to place the aquarium will accomadate a 36" tank.

Since this is in a very professional location, the whole appearance of the tank needs to be very clean and easy to maintain (maybe an oxymoron with reefkeeping).

Tank considerations:

The tank that appeals to me right now is a 46g bowfront by Oceanic Systems. Is there a better tank for this setting or maybe a better manufacturer.

Filtration:

During my recent searches, I stumbled upon a vendor of Live Rock at http://www.tbsaltwater.com/index.html
According to them, I could run a system with basically just a protein skimmer and some circulation and, of course, their Live Rock and various animal life. This appeals to me from the standpoint of simplicity as well as lack of noise from the water passing through the filter. (Again, I work in a professional environment and have clients in my office all the time) However, it almost sounds to good to be true. I have visited several LFS and they all say I need a wet/dry. Any thoughts?

Lighting:

It appears that with VHO's I could populate a tank with an interesting collection of different marine life. However, I have always wanted a mated pair of clownfish brushing in and out of an anenome. For this seemingly simple desire, it sounds as if I need to crank up my lighting to the MH arena. Any thoughts on the validity of this assumption?
My only concern with going the MH route has to do with the noise factor. I am aware that MH's run hot and the canopy must be cooled down. I am concerned about the noise of the fans. I am comfortable with a subtle humming, but if it will be obnoxiously loud it may not be appropriate. Any way to quiet the fans down, or are there "super quiet" fans out there?

There are many more questions, but I would just like some input on the path I should be taking. Thank you in advance for your input.

[Reefland]

Okay, forgive me for not having the patience to go through 60k posts to culminate the answers to my questions. So instead, I am asking for your patience in reading this lengthy email to answer the questions specific to my circumstances.

Forgiven.

I am fortunate enough to have a beautiful corner office that is just crying for an aquarium. I had a reef tank about 10 years ago set up on a standard wet/dry system that I built myself. Lost everything during a power outage while on vacation. Eventually sold everything for beer money, so now I'm starting from scratch again.

I am pleased to see that you are doing some research regarding new techiniques and methodologies. There are a lot of new options available and ways to do things today over 10 years ago.

Tank considerations:

The tank that appeals to me right now is a 46g bowfront by Oceanic Systems. Is there a better tank for this setting or maybe a better manufacturer.

Oceanic makes a very fine product; the craftsmanship of theirs tanks will not dissappoint you. However the 46g bowfront wouldn't be a prime choice for me for a couple of reasons. First of all they do not come Reef Ready (drilled with a corner overflow) and secondly, a tank that is 18" wide (front to back) is much more appealing for a reef tank. The 12" wide tanks just don't allow for nice aquascaping; the extra 6" makes a world of difference.

I would suggest the Oceanic 58g Reef Ready tank with dimensions of 36"x18"x21" and again since it's reef ready adding the filtration will be much easier.

Filtration:

During my recent searches, I stumbled upon a vendor of Live Rock at http://www.tbsaltwater.com/index.html
According to them, I could run a system with basically just a protein skimmer and some circulation and, of course, their Live Rock and various animal life. This appeals to me from the standpoint of simplicity as well as lack of noise from the water passing through the filter. (Again, I work in a professional environment and have clients in my office all the time) However, it almost sounds to good to be true. I have visited several LFS and they all say I need a wet/dry. Any thoughts?

Actually, they are not too far from the basics that are required. I'll break this part of my post up a bit.

Live Rock:
There is all kinds of available LR that will be necessary in your reef but differences in the different types makes for a personal preference decision to be made. The live rock you linked above is very nice in color and shape but has a disadvantage over other types, it is very heavy, so if you get 20lbs of LR from them, you might only get 4 small pieces. Fiji LR is preferred as it is very porous and light weight and also comes in many different varieties. Kaelini, Buna Spiney, Tonga branch and many other types of live rock are also available today and many people choose to go with a little bit of each to get the added diversity which is a good thing.

One thing you will definately want since this is an office tank is to purchase Fully Cured rock, make sure your not getting something that is transhipped direct from the collectors as it will stink, you will pay a premium but it will be worth it to your visitors. Another advantage of buying fully cured rock is that your tank will go through a very small cycle and it should help on keeping the ugly algae to a minimum during this brief period.

Other Filtration:
I like to recommend a sump for saltwater aquariums. They add extra water volume, the return pump provides quite a bit of your circulation and it provides a place to put some of your misc. equipment like heaters and your protein skimmer. It also allows for easier additions down the road if you wish like CA Reactors and refugiums. This is also why i suggest getting a Reef Ready aquarium as it makes adding a sump a much easier process. Don't worry about the noise, there are some handy "standpipes" that can easily be constructed from PVC that will make the system virtually silent. Once you have your sump set up, getting a protein skimmer added (AquaC are nice as are MyReefCreations). Circulation was partially addressed with the return pump from the sump and more will depend on what type of coral you plan on keeping. Soft Corals and LPS corals do not require the high flow that SPS corals will.

Lighting:

It appears that with VHO's I could populate a tank with an interesting collection of different marine life. However, I have always wanted a mated pair of clownfish brushing in and out of an anenome. For this seemingly simple desire, it sounds as if I need to crank up my lighting to the MH arena. Any thoughts on the validity of this assumption?
My only concern with going the MH route has to do with the noise factor. I am aware that MH's run hot and the canopy must be cooled down. I am concerned about the noise of the fans. I am comfortable with a subtle humming, but if it will be obnoxiously loud it may not be appropriate. Any way to quiet the fans down, or are there "super quiet" fans out there?

Your right on track here. VHO will allow you to keep Soft and LPS corals but if you plan to get into Clams, SPS and anemones, MH will be a must. Keeping them cool with fans can get noisey but there are some quite one's available; IceCap fans come to mind. They are variable speed and very quite. There are other ways to help with the heat such as running a small fan over your sump too.

There are many more questions, but I would just like some input on the path I should be taking. Thank you in advance for your input.

Your very welcome and Welcome to Reefland!
Scott Z.

[almostdiva]

Mike,

Welcome to Reefland! You are gonna have a lot of fun starting up a tank after your 10-year hiatus. Things have CHANGED!

I would totally agree with Scott on your rock -- go with something from the Pacific over Florida rock to get more rock for less $$.

Darren at Palmetto Reefs http://www.palmettoreefs.com/livestock.htm and Rocky at Coralfragz http://www.coralfragz.com are both members here and have great stuff. You can also check out Dr Mac and Sons http://www.drmaccorals.com/sys-tmpl/door/ for interesting rock and livestock choices.

Lighting is a BIG topic in reefing. Take a look at champion lighting's site. They offer everything. All the hard core SPS keepers here run metal halide lighting, I'm pretty sure DougChambers keeps his clams under 4 110-watt VHOs though -- you could look in the archives in the lighting forum for a thread that discusses the exact subject when I was looking for some opinions from the folks here as to what to go with on my 55G. (I'm sure this post will get some comments going, too).

I would TOTALLY go with a sump. You'll like the results. Read up, ask questions (everyone on this board is really nice and there are some folks here with lots of experience in the hobby).

Good luck!

Rebecca

[mikeinsac2001]

Wow, great information already! And as usual, sparks additional questions.

I'm not finding the stand/canopy setup I'm looking for. My office is traditional cherry mahogany finish. All of the "cherry" finishes appear to be over oak or pine(Doesn't look good to me). Are you aware of anyone making stands with different woods so I can try to match up closer to what I have or are there good websites with how to construct one myself. I'm pretty handy with the wood working, but to be honest I'd be pretty nervous about something I created collapsing.

Regarding the live rock and setting up in the tank. Assuming I went with the 58g that was recommended, do I need some sort of support structure as I read one member discussing? I thought you just piled the rock up on each other.

Looks like I will go the MH approach, and it appears I should also include a couple of VHO actinics. How many, and what wattage/k level should I be using. A follow on question would be what type of fan arrangement will I need to install to keep it cool in there?

Any specific reccomendations on the sump/skimmer/heater/return setup?

[Reefland]

Wow, great information already! And as usual, sparks additional questions.

I'm not finding the stand/canopy setup I'm looking for. My office is traditional cherry mahogany finish. All of the "cherry" finishes appear to be over oak or pine(Doesn't look good to me). Are you aware of anyone making stands with different woods so I can try to match up closer to what I have or are there good websites with how to construct one myself. I'm pretty handy with the wood working, but to be honest I'd be pretty nervous about something I created collapsing.

Building a hood and stand isn't hard at all as long as your pretty good working with wood to begin with. As long as everything is square and your building the tank with appropriate wood you won't have to worry about anything collapsing. There was one person that was building custom jobs but I don't think he his in business any longer; his board name is Vpwoodwork1.

Regarding the live rock and setting up in the tank. Assuming I went with the 58g that was recommended, do I need some sort of support structure as I read one member discussing? I thought you just piled the rock up on each other.

Some people choose to place their rock on some type of support, this is simply to ensure the rock structer has a sturdy base. As long as you sit the rock firmly in your substrate, supports aren't necessary.

Looks like I will go the MH approach, and it appears I should also include a couple of VHO actinics. How many, and what wattage/k level should I be using. A follow on question would be what type of fan arrangement will I need to install to keep it cool in there?

2 VHO actinics will compliment a MH set-up nicely. You will want 36" bulbs to fit over your tank which are 95watts. Go for the Icecap VHO retro kit, they are the most popular. For fans, I like to run 2 fans, one at each end of the canopy. Face 1 in the hood and 1 blowing out of the hood.

Any specific reccomendations on the sump/skimmer/heater/return setup?

If you want to go big time, take a look at www.lifereef.com, they have complete filtration systems but can get costly. AquaC and MyReefCreations both make great skimmers, I like Ebo Jager Heaters and MAG drive pumps for medium flow returns.

[mikeinsac2001]

I'm looking at LifeReef's website and specifically at their Berlin filters. Doesn't look like the wet/dry I'm used to with all the "Bio Balls". Is this the type of system I want or do I need the trickle filter that I'm used to?

[mikeinsac2001]

Regarding the lighting.

If I go with the two VHO and one MH, I am concerned about the dimensions. I have seen some discussion that the MH should be perpendicular to the front glass. The MH retro kit that I saw with a "Spider Light" reflector is 16" long. This would only allow me 1" in front or back for the VHO's. Will this work? Or more to the point how am I going to get this all in the canopy?

[Beerman]

Mike if you need help locally with the setup, let me know. I'm in Fair Oaks. Just e-mail me. I work for beer.

[mikeinsac2001]

Mike if you need help locally with the setup, let me know. I'm in Fair Oaks. Just e-mail me. I work for beer.

Are there any good LFS in town?

[Beerman]

Aqua Life in Rocklin is probably the best. I don't like Capitol Aquarium (Downtown) which is what most people will recommend. They have the biggest selection though. I don't like O St (Downtown) or Exotic Aquarium (South Sac) either. Aquaworld is o.k. but selection is small. I go there the most because it's close by my house. I buy most stuff through the internet.

[mikeinsac2001]

Aqua Life in Rocklin is probably the best. I don't like Capitol Aquarium (Downtown) which is what most people will recommend. They have the biggest selection though. I don't like O St (Downtown) or Exotic Aquarium (South Sac) either. Aquaworld is o.k. but selection is small. I go there the most because it's close by my house. I buy most stuff through the internet.

Used to be a great place on Douglas Blvd who had a lot of reef stuff 10 years ago when I was doing this stuff. I plan to buy most stuff through the internet too, but it looks like I need to get my aquarium from a LFS as it appears most people don't ship glass aquariums. I'll check out Aqua Life. Can't stand Capitol. Used to like O St. when it was The Fish Company, but haven't been in there lately.

I am so excited to get back into this stuff, but I'm trying to temper my enthusiasm and get caught up with recent technology. Tell me a little about your system when you get a chance.

[almostdiva]

I'm looking at LifeReef's website and specifically at their Berlin filters. Doesn't look like the wet/dry I'm used to with all the "Bio Balls". Is this the type of system I want or do I need the trickle filter that I'm used to?

Mike,

I've never used the LifeReef products. When I FIRST set up my tank, I had an Amiracle Wet/Dry with the bio balls. Lots of people buy the Wet/Dry and put live rock and sand in the "media chamber" instead of using the bio balls (better filtration and nitrate management). What I think you will find MOST people doing these days (correct me if I'm wrong here, gents... ) is using a "sump" where they can put the skimmer and all the other gadgets (if you are into gadgets!) in one section and a whole bunch of rock and sand or rock and algae or "Miracle Mud" or whatever... some people use small aquariums (mine is a 20 g long and I have a 55G up top), or rubermaid bins, which are even cheaper

To make a long story short -- I don't think you NEED either kind of filter. It's more a question of how you want your setup done. Have you looked at Ninong's thread in the Reef Forum called "Pictures of Ninong's Tank in Progress"?? It's LONG (21 pages and growing!) but George has done an EXCELLENT job of documenting all the steps -- complete with pictures. It's a very worthwhile read, IMO...

Rebecca

[mikeinsac2001]

Thanks, Rebecca.

Yeah, I've been reading Ninong's post. Great journal of events and point/counterpoints. I should be done by Christmas.

The media chamber in the wet/dry was trickled with water. Is this the same if you used LR, or is the LR only as high as the water line?

Also, I just remembered that I had a lot of salt creep from the top of my tank last time. Any tricks to keeping this at a minimum? I think the janitors would appreciate it if I kept it under control.

I am considering a RR tank, with the return coming up through the overlflow. I was planning to create a line with this return that have 3 seperate outlets along the back of the tank. I would use those flexible outlet "thingies" to direct the outflow towards the front glass and down with the hopes that would flow downwards through the rock and back up the back of the glass. Will this provide enough circulation? Do I need all these Sea Swirls or wave makers? I just don't want a bunch of bulky stuff viewable in the tank. I had all kinds of crap coming over the back last time. Ultimately, I want to limit what gadgets I see in the tank as much as possible. I don't have a problem spending the money on gadgets, but only if it is justified by a healthier tank. Since I am starting from scratch, I don't have a preference for which setup I'd like to have. I just want to increase the odds of the healthiest tank possible. I feel that the money and time I invest now will ultimately save me more money in the long run.

What is "Miracle Mud"? Sounds like something I'd find at the spa or in a infomercial. Also, showing how green I am, how do I get all those fun little faces in my email. Maybe if I liven things up a bit, I'll get more replies.



Mike

[almostdiva]

Mike,

Let's start at the bottom and work up. "Miracle Mud" (despite the name...) is NOT the latest fancy spa treatment. It is a product developed by EcoSystem, by a guy named Leng Sy. Here is the URL
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/htm...eProducts.html

it's mud/sand with additives like trace elements, anaerobic organisms, etc. It functions kind of like live sand I guess. I have never used it, but I know lots of people do. It's one of those setup choices you get to make! Put it in the sump with lots of macro algae and you get nitrate export. Have you ever browsed through the Wet Web Media site? Here is THAT URL
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/

Lots of articles/summaries, etc. good stuff about corals, lighting, sand.

Pile the live rock in the media chamber so that you can still put the top on -- the water will trickle over the rock instead of the bio balls.

I'm bad at tank plumbing, but in general, most people would say that a RR/drilled tank is an advantage -- built in overflow, less "stuff" hanging off the back.

What do you want to grow/raise for corals? Depending on what you want to keep, you will need more/less "flow". It has to come from someplace -- powerheads, wavemakers, seaswirls. I will be adding a seaswirl shortly -- most people like them, I think. Zhenya and Joaco here use them I know, Ninong just installed one, too. They have a good reputation. The advantage is that they move water in a more natural way(more like the ocean!) than the laminar (straight line/constantly in one direction) flow you would get from a powerhead.

Re the funny faces -- they are emoticons. Do you see the little box to your left when you are typing/replying to a message? If yo usee one you like, double click on it and -- voila it will appear in your message. There are various programs you can download, too, that will give you WAY more than the 15 or so we can use here.

GOOD LUCK!

[Reefland]

Thanks, Rebecca.

Yeah, I've been reading Ninong's post. Great journal of events and point/counterpoints. I should be done by Christmas.

The media chamber in the wet/dry was trickled with water. Is this the same if you used LR, or is the LR only as high as the water line?

Also, I just remembered that I had a lot of salt creep from the top of my tank last time. Any tricks to keeping this at a minimum? I think the janitors would appreciate it if I kept it under control.

I am considering a RR tank, with the return coming up through the overlflow. I was planning to create a line with this return that have 3 seperate outlets along the back of the tank. I would use those flexible outlet "thingies" to direct the outflow towards the front glass and down with the hopes that would flow downwards through the rock and back up the back of the glass. Will this provide enough circulation? Do I need all these Sea Swirls or wave makers? I just don't want a bunch of bulky stuff viewable in the tank. I had all kinds of crap coming over the back last time. Ultimately, I want to limit what gadgets I see in the tank as much as possible. I don't have a problem spending the money on gadgets, but only if it is justified by a healthier tank. Since I am starting from scratch, I don't have a preference for which setup I'd like to have. I just want to increase the odds of the healthiest tank possible. I feel that the money and time I invest now will ultimately save me more money in the long run.

What is "Miracle Mud"? Sounds like something I'd find at the spa or in a infomercial. Also, showing how green I am, how do I get all those fun little faces in my email. Maybe if I liven things up a bit, I'll get more replies.



Mike

Mike,

A Reef Ready tank is definately the way to go; don't consider anything else. Inside the overflow, you will want a standpipe to eliminate the flushing and keep any noise to a minimum. Do a search for standpipe to "read all about it".

Sometimes however the return line in the reef ready tanks just aren't enough and you have to bring another or more over the back of the tank. It take minimal room though and shouldn't be an eyesore at all.

You can go with a modified wet/dry filter but I would choose a sump filtration system like you are seeing at Life Reef. Again those are expensive but they will give you an idea of what to do. My Reef Creation also is selling sumps now (last I looked) which are more reasonable as far as cost.

Scott Z.

[Beerman]

Mike I sold a Lee Mar because my wife thought it was too big. You may want to look into them because it was a real nice looking tank. Check out the black one's. Well made too. There's a store on Greenback that ordered it for me. I kept the smaller acrylic 125 gallon. It had a built in wet/dry with bioballs but I took them out. Have a 20 gallon sump with a Euro-reef CS8-1 skimmer and myreef CR-2 dual chamber reactor. About 130 pounds of live rock and six inches of very fine aragonite. Use a litermeter III for top offs and kalk. Mostly LPS corals with some softies and a few fish. That fish store off Douglas, behind that record store went out of business close to a decade ago. It was nice.

[jsaltzgi]

You can definitely get enough flow using a reef ready tank. I have an Oceanic 75 gallon. I used to use the larger hole (1" I think) as the drain and the smaller hole (3/4" I think) for the return that went over the overflow chamber to a spraybar. The return pump I used was a Mag12 (probably about 900 gph at the head I had) and then used some additional powerheads in the tank. I have hanged the system to now use both of the holes in the overflow chamber as drains, plumbed the spraybar to come over the back of the tank and then over the overflow chamber so there is no additional in-tank plumbing, and also added a 3/4" SeaSwirl. The return pump is an AmpMaster 3000, and I think that at 2400 gph between the two returns, I'm happy with the flow.

I now use the Mag12 to pump from the sump to a Refugium/ macroalgae tank, and the some of the powerheads as mixing pumps for new saltwater.

Does this help at all with your flow question?

James