Live Rock, sand and wet dry question

[TA2Z]

I am sooooo confused. I am about to set up a reef tank. I had been shoping around at several LFS for a tank and found what I thought was a good deal on a set up. The deal was at a local store that specialized in saltwater fish and equipment. The guy who runs the place was highly recomended by several people - the guy had even setup and maintained a tank at my wife's office on wall st - a beautiful tank too that ran for years with no problems. The tank I purchased was a 72 gallon bow front reef ready.
What I'm confused about is the issue of filtration. With the tank I also bought (before thoroughly researching my task and on the supposition that this guy had a good reputation) a wet dry filter, a pump and a UV filter. The math on all those parts is right for the tank. But here is the thing: I am planning on putting in about a 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallon in to the tank along with a suitable bed of live samd (1pound per gallon is what I have seen said many times). This is where I get confused.
Is this redundant? Should I take out the bio balls and use the wet dry tank as a painfully expensive sump along with an in-sump protein skimmer? The wet dry box has two chambers with a bottom slot to feed the second chamber - can I use a protein skimmer in the box?
The guy at the store said I won't need a skimmer at all with the wet dry and the UV. With all of the reading I've done, I see over and over people saying to stay away from the wet dry systems. What can I do with the system I have without breaking the bank or loosing my mind?
I should also mention that the tank is not even plumbed yet.
Help would be much appreciated - thank you.

[Leddy]

Is it too late to return the wet dry? I'd say definitly get the skimmer, a good one. If you can return the wet dry, get a skimmer, and a tank for a sump. I'm sure others will voice their opinions, but thats what I'd do. Good Luck.


Leddy

[Reefland]

Hi TA2Z, Welcome to Reefland!

The wet/dry filtration units sold are very good at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate but have no way of helping to reduce nitrate; in fact can contribute to the problem by collecting unprocessed waste in the bio-media. In systems that can function with a nitrate level of 20ppm and slightly higher (Fish-Only Systems), wet/dry filters are ok used in conjuction with a skimmer however for reef tanks that are going to house coral, the increased nitrate level is detrimental to the animals and therefore are not recommended.

I would return the wet/dry to the "reputable" guy (if he is reputable he will have no problem giving you a refund on an unused piece of equipment) and picking up a good skimmer (no prisms, no sea-clones, no bakpaks) and use a standard sized tank with some baffles placed inside it for a sump.

Scott Z.

[robvia]

The points made here are valid, but you need to keep in mind what each piece of equipment does. If I am wrong about this, someone please correct me.

The protein skimmer removes ammonia and other toxin from the water before bacteria breaks them down. That is a good thing. That is why most call it essential for a salt water tank. It helps keep all bad levels down.

The wet/dry is not really what traps the nitrate. The lack of plant life or something to remove the nitrate is what traps the nitrate. I think wet/drys get blamed because a commercial one is not really big enough to make a real refuge. We get these, like I did, and don’t know how important the other step is. Then we don’t add plant life, like me right now, and nitrates run high.

If you can return the wet/dry and build your own sump that can house plants, I would suggest it. You will still need the pre-filter box, if your tank isn’t drilled. Skimming is a good thing because you will have ammonia in your tank to break down. It sounds like you will have enough LR that you would not need bio-balls. Having them would just give you more surface area for bacteria to grow. You still need nitrate removal. That is either water change or plants or denitraficator. You have options.

Rob

[Ninong]

What I'm confused about is the issue of filtration.

Yes, it can be extremely confusing.

With the tank I also bought (before thoroughly researching my task and on the supposition that this guy had a good reputation) a wet dry filter, a pump and a UV filter.

The UV filter is not considered a "required" piece of equipment for the average size reef tank. They have their advantages and disadvantages and are probably better utilized on fish-only aquaria and possibly very large reef aquaria.

The wet/dry filter was state of the art in the late 1980's and early 1990's. It is no longer considered the best option for reef tanks.

I am planning on putting in about a 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallon in to the tank along with a suitable bed of live samd (1pound per gallon is what I have seen said many times).

How much live rock you use is a matter of personal choice. I started out with about 175 lbs in my 120-gal tank and then I removed 25 lbs. I now have about 150 lbs in there and I will probably remove another 15-25 lbs. There are so many differing opinions on the depth of the sand bed that almost any depth will be the "best" depth according to at least one of the so-called experts. I happen to have a 6" deep sand bed but I do not recommend that for everyone. I think a 3" deep sand bed would be a reasonable compromise, or you could go with 4". If you prefer only 2", so be it. That's a different approach. And then there are those whose preference is for a very shallow sand bed of no more than 1/2" - 3/4" depth. You will get a heck of a lot more biological filtration out of a 3"+ deep sand bed than you will with only a 1" or 2" deep sand bed but that's up to you.

This is where I get confused.
Is this redundant? Should I take out the bio balls and use the wet dry tank as a painfully expensive sump along with an in-sump protein skimmer? The wet dry box has two chambers with a bottom slot to feed the second chamber - can I use a protein skimmer in the box?
The guy at the store said I won't need a skimmer at all with the wet dry and the UV.

Yes, you could say it is redundant to use a wet/dry filter if you have a live sand bed and a lot of nice live rock PLUS an efficient protein skimmer. You have to remember that wet/dry filters were in use long BEFORE protein skimmers. The guy at the LFS is still selling what they used to sell 15 years ago. Wet/dry filters are ancient history. No serious authority (other than LFS owners who sell them and the manufacturers who still make them) would recommend one for a reef tank given the choices available today.

With all of the reading I've done, I see over and over people saying to stay away from the wet dry systems.

Yes, that's true. And you have probably heard them called "nitrate factories." And every time this topic comes up there are sure to be a few wet/dry filter proponents who will get all bent out of shape insisting that it "just ain't so."

The reason wet/dry filters are called nitrate factories is because they produce nitrate. They are very efficient at it, too. That's because they do such an excellent job of aeration. The denitrification cycle starts with ammonia being reduced to nitrite (aerobic conditions) and then nitrite being reduced to nitrate (aerobic or anaerobic conditions) and then finally the nitrate is converted to nitrogen gas (N2) plus a small amount of nitrous oxide (N2O). This last step takes place in anaerobic conditions. That means no oxygen or extremely low oxygen, such as the conditions in a deep sand bed or deep inside live rock. Wet/dry filters do a lot more of the first two steps than they do of the last step, thus the excess nitrate has to be processed by the sand bed and the live rock. You could eliminate the wet/dry filter altogether. The sand bed and the live rock coupled with a good protein skimmer are all that you need.

Protein skimmers remove proteins and other organic compounds before they are processed by the biological filter (sand bed and live rock), thus reducing the biological load on those systems. It's a lot more complicated than that, but this would turn into an extremely lengthy post if we went there. ;;

[TA2Z]

Thanks all - I feel better, I think, at least as if I am on more of the right track. After reading far into the night last night and searching the www for all things reef, and after reading these replys along with the rest of the boards, this is what I have decided to do: I spoke to the LFS guy today, he agreed to take the wet dry back, no cash refund but he will credit me for LR at a decent, but not great, price. The plan is to dump the wet dry and the clear plastic hose he gave me and build my own 4 chambered sump and plumb it with pvc - water in on to live rock gravel > to protein skimmer chamber > to refugem (sp?) > to return pump back to the tank.

The UV filter I'm still unsure about. the room the tank is going in to, while never subject to direct sunlight, at certain times of the year can be bright - with the shades down you wouldn't need to turn on the lights to read a book kind of bright - not overwhelming but bright nonetheless. this is the reason the LFS suggested the UV in the first place - "you will be overwhelmed with algea if you don't use a UV" was what he said - although I am far more dubious now of such advice. While I have read of many, or most, people who are against the use of a UV I know nothing about the conditions of the space where these tanks are housed. Any suggestions?

So, now I have found a good sump design (I think), the thing I am most baffled about now is how one figures out the water levels of the sump. Beyond the factors of the return line and pump and the drain line, are water levels determined by design, gravity, what? Obviously my priorities are to build a good system that is relatively easy to maintain and avoid desaster. I imagine its the return pump but I'm still not entirely sure. The baffles? All of the above?

Looking at all the reefs on this site and others like it from all the different people, a reef tank is a remarkable thing. Above all it seems to be an ever evolving space. I'm quite sure I'll be back with more questions. Thanks for your help.

[robvia]

I would say don't worry about the UV for now. You can add it later to a sump if you need it.

Use RO/DI water! Get a filter for your house! Get some snails! Don't use tap water! You can get an RO/DI filter for $100 or so. You will get an algae bloom at some point no matter what you do. Tap water is high in phosphates and will contribute to red slime algae. It looks terrible. I have been fighting that myself. Wish I had started with RO/DI water, but I can't change the past.

Water level in the sump is determined by the baffles. Water fills to the top and spills into the next chamber. Water level in the tank is determined by placement of the skimmer box. If your tank is drilled and has a fixed box in it already your tank level is already set. It sounds like that is how yours is setup.
Rob