[bguile]

I'm setting up to go to a bigger tank. I've decided on a 90g AGA with overflow. I am going to build a stand using plans from www.fishandtips.com and depending on what you guys suggest, I may have to build a hood. I want to use you guys' experience and knowledge (and of course a lot of reading on my own) to build this system b/c I want to do it right. Here's what I want to keep when I or the tank (whichever comes LAST! ) are ready for it.

- my current clownfish
- soft corals
- anenome
- Clams
- SPS
- LPS
- Tang
- a flame angel
- other community fish

I want to know:

1. What items do I need to maintain this system? (filtration, pumps, etc)
2. What type of lights can I use? (Wattage, how many?)

The tank dimensions are 48x18x24. Is there a checklist somewhere that I can use to plan this all out properly? If not, can someone give me a listing of the things I need first, then I'll come back for suggestions on which models, etc. I've read many posts here and did searches but haven't found anything that specifically lists equipment needed. If there is please point it out to me.

Thanks.

[saltjunkie]

Well, i would use 2x250 metal halide lighting... with atleast 2x110 vho..

for filtration.. get a sump with a refugium.. and a good to great skimmer...

put a DSB in the sump and go either bare bottom or DSB in the display tank,...
use atleast a mag 9 for return pump.. and some nice power head/pumps for water flow in the tank..
either Maxi Jet or Tunze

[bguile]

thanks saltjunkie. This info should get me off to a good start. Are there any other "essential" equipment I would need to get things started? I'm trying to put together and budget how much this is all going to cost. I was in a LFS looking at the asking prices for MH holders (pendants??) and it was upward of $800. I heard they were expensive but I didn't know it was THAT much. Although I probably won't use those since I may have to build my own hood. Is that correct?

[Reefland]

For the lighting, it is going to be cheaper online so shop around there. The type of metal halide you use would depend on your preference. I use Double-Ended MH which requires a pendent, but it could easily be mounted in a canopy. A 2x250w Mogule socket retro kit will cost less and will be easier to fit into a canopy though. The 250w DE's were very popular due to studies that were performed showing they produced more PAR than the single ended bulbs but an upcoming release of new results is supposed to show differently.

[bguile]

Thanks Scott. I'm thinking I'll go with the double ends then. I saw this setup that looks like it lends to a DIY hood well ( http://www.innovativelights.com/fixt...xtures_12.html ) . Any experience or thoughts on the quality of this fixture?

Another couple questions. I am going to build a sump with refugium using a 30gal tank which will be under the tank hidden in the stand. I think I'm going to go with an MR-1 skimmer.

1. Does the skimmer pull in water then feed it through PVC to another chamber? Or does it just sit in the sump and suck in and push out the water in the same general area?

2. Since a Mag 12 is recommended for the skimmer, can the output of the skimmer be used as a return?

3. Does the refugium have to be cycled like a display tank?

THanks.

[bguile]

Got these answers from my LFS guy. Thanks. Research and building is underway!

[Reefland]

Oh I'm sorry, I missed this post.

The skimmer just sits in one section and pumps water into and flows water out of it into the same area. I see no reason to complicate it into anything more.

No.

Yes.

[bguile]

No problem Scott. I'm glad to see the answers I received are consistent. I've posted my stand design in the DIY forum. I'd like to get your opinion and advice on it.
http://www.reefland.com/forum/showth...1201#post91201

[bguile]

Ok. I'm reviving this thread just to try to keep everything together on my tank. Anyways, my LR just came in and is in the process of curing in two tubs in my back yard. (84lbs Fiji, 24lbs tonga branch, 20lbs Kalini). I would do it in my tank to help start the initial cycle, but I am concerned about smell. Any suggestions on this. I have an MR1 skimmer in a sump.

The point I'm at now is deciding or setting up a DSB. I have read that a minimum depth is about 4". I'm cool with that and will sugar sized argonite. My question is, I picked up some "Argalive" sand that's supposed to have over 20,000 beneficial bacterias per pound. Is this considered what is referred to as live sand? Or is this just a type of "fertilizer" to a sandbed?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bguile

Ok. I'm reviving this thread just to try to keep everything together on my tank. Anyways, my LR just came in and is in the process of curing in two tubs in my back yard. (84lbs Fiji, 24lbs tonga branch, 20lbs Kalini).

In your backyard in Baltimore??? I assume you are able to maintain the water temperature at least 70 degrees Fahrenheit, right? And it's covered somehow so that rainwater won't affect the salinity???

The point I'm at now is deciding or setting up a DSB. I have read that a minimum depth is about 4".

Yes, 4" is the usual recommendation for a good deep sand bed but you can probably get by with 3-3.5" if you want. I have a 6" deep sand bed but I think that's a bit much and I probably won't go that deep next time unless my next tank is much taller than my present one, which is 27.5" tall.

I'm cool with that and will sugar sized argonite. My question is, I picked up some "Argalive" sand that's supposed to have over 20,000 beneficial bacterias per pound. Is this considered what is referred to as live sand?

No, Aragalive is NOT what is considered live sand. It is simply pricey sugar-sized aragonite sand that has semi-dormant bacteria added to it. It will speed up the process of establishing the beneficial bacterial population in your new sand bed but the truth of the matter is that the bacteria would establish themselves anyway, with or without the pricey "live" sand. No harm done and yes, it's beneficial -- just not really necessary.

Considering the fact that you live in Baltimore where the inexpensive Southdown Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean (could be called Oldcastle or Yardright, as long as it reads "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean") is readily available in the Garden Dept. at most Home Depot stores, you might want to use that for your sand bed. I did. Only I paid a lot more for my Southdown because of shipping. It usually sells for about $3.50 per 50-lb bag in your neck of the woods.

True live sand has more than just beneficial bacteria in it. It has a wide assortment of microcrustaceans, tiny worms, etc., that are mostly too small to see with the naked eye but are extremely valuable. There are two different kinds of true live sand: The expensive stuff that is collected in the South Pacific and then shipped over here and the less expensive stuff that is "cultured" over here. The collection, handling and shipping process can have a lot to do with the quality of the product when it finally ends up in your hands. Wild-collected live sand is simply sand that is dug up just below the tide line on a beach somewhere in Fiji or some other tropical locale. Cultured live sand is just aragonite sand (like Southdown, etc.) that has been seeded with wild-collected live sand and live rock. Most of the vendors who sell fully cured live rock will also sell sand from their live rock curing vats. Also, live sand is available from some of the vendors who sell so-called detritivore kits, such as www.inlandaquatics.com and www.ipsf.com to name just a couple.

It's OK to start out with mostly "dead" sand and then add a small amount of true live sand to it after the first couple of weeks. You should strive to get small amounts (a few pounds) of live sand from two or more different sources to increase your biodiversity.

[bguile]

Thanks for the help Ninong

Originally Posted by Ninong

In your backyard in Baltimore??? I assume you are able to maintain the water temperature at least 70 degrees Fahrenheit, right? And it's covered somehow so that rainwater won't affect the salinity???

Yep, I'm in Baltimore and the rock is in the back. The basins are covered and by my basement door under a porch so it's kept from rain for the most part. Also, I do have heaters in them and the water is maintained at 75 degrees even through the couple 40 degree nights we've had so I feel I should be able to make it through the curing cycle before it gets too cold.

It usually sells for about $3.50 per 50-lb bag in your neck of the woods.

I had no idea that Southdown was that cheap! $3.50 for a bag of 50lbs??? Was that a typo? I may see if the local store has some tonight if that's right and take the arga-live stuff back. (Hope I can find the receipt) Also, is the Southdown the same color as argonite? I thought I read someone say they didn't like it b/c it was an orange/brown color and didn't look natural. I could be mixing it up with something else seeing that I read so many posts and they all begin to run together.

It's OK to start out with mostly "dead" sand and then add a small amount of true live sand to it after the first couple of weeks.

Add live sand after a couple weeks? What's the reasoning if there would be nothing in my tank but "dead" sand and saltwater?

Also, any suggestions on adding the sand without creating a sandstorm that will take a week to clear?? I have to use the tank to mix the salt so I can't add the sand first then slowly add water which was my original hope.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bguile

I had no idea that Southdown was that cheap! $3.50 for a bag of 50lbs???

Sometimes they put it on sale for $1.99/50-lb bag! One problem is that it is sort of seasonal, so some stores run out of it by the end of summer. It will be in the Garden Dept., not the building supplies department.

Also, is the Southdown the same color as argonite?

As long as the bag includes the words "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean," it IS aragonite. All aragonite comes from the same source. All aragonite is the same color. Play sand does NOT have to be aragonite; most of it is just plain old tan quartz sand. But if you can find some Southdown or Oldcastle or Yardright play sand that has that exact phrase on the bag, then you have it made.

Add live sand after a couple weeks? What's the reasoning if there would be nothing in my tank but "dead" sand and saltwater?

The reasoning is that you want to wait for your ammonia and nitrite to spike and come back down to zero. If that happens in only a few days, fine. If you were to set up your tank with live rock that was NOT fully cured, it would probably take at least two weeks. You don't want to kill off any of the life in your live sand.

Also, any suggestions on adding the sand without creating a sandstorm that will take a week to clear?? I have to use the tank to mix the salt so I can't add the sand first then slowly add water which was my original hope.

No, you don't have to use the tank to mix the saltwater. You can buy a cheapy Rubbermaid Brute container (32-gal, etc.) to mix your saltwater. As long as this is a brand new setup without any livestock yet, you could simply add the freshly mixed saltwater within fifteen minutes after you mix it up in the Rubbermaid container (garbage can). Be sure to get a Brute container and only in white, gray or yellow. Because those are the ones that are certified OK for food handling. They won't leach nasties into your nice saltwater or R.O./D.I. water.

Put the dry sand (Southdown, whatever) into your tank. Do not rinse it ahead of time. Then there are several tricks that help a little to hold down the sandstorm effect. Place Saran wrap (or similar) on top of a large part of the sandbed and then VERY gently add the saltwater on top of the Saran wrap. Or just use a large dinner plate and add the water to the plate. Ideally you want to pump it from the Rubbermaid to the tank VERY slowly and gently. Don't worry if it doesn't work all that well. It seldom does.

Most people start their tanks with the sand AND the live rock. I sort of started mine with just the sand and then added the live rock ten days later. You can do it either way. Probably better to do it with the live rock from the get-go. I had a sandstorm. It lasted about 8 days. No biggie. Try to run with just a minimum amount of flow for the first few days to hold down on the sandstorm effect.

[bguile]

Originally Posted by Ninong

As long as the bag includes the words "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean," it IS aragonite. All aragonite comes from the same source. All aragonite is the same color. Play sand does NOT have to be aragonite; most of it is just plain old tan quartz sand. But if you can find some Southdown or Oldcastle or Yardright play sand that has that exact phrase on the bag, then you have it made.

I just came back from HD (caught them before they closed). I looked and didn't see any sand with those markings. The closest I saw was some "desert play sand" and "Premium Grade Play Sand". They both claimed "sanitized" for a sandbox. I take it that neither of these is what I'm looking for? I remember seeing Southdown in some store locally, just can't remember which one.

The reasoning is that you want to wait for your ammonia and nitrite to spike and come back down to zero.

I take it this is IF I cure the rock in the tank which I am not doing. Or are you telling me that there will be an ammonia spike due to the sand? If not, having just water and sand is ok to add the "live sand" to since I won't be adding the live rock until it is cured. Is that correct?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bguile

I just came back from HD (caught them before they closed). I looked and didn't see any sand with those markings. The closest I saw was some "desert play sand" and "Premium Grade Play Sand". They both claimed "sanitized" for a sandbox. I take it that neither of these is what I'm looking for? I remember seeing Southdown in some store locally, just can't remember which one.

That's right, it MUST say "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean."

I take it this is IF I cure the rock in the tank which I am not doing. Or are you telling me that there will be an ammonia spike due to the sand? If not, having just water and sand is ok to add the "live sand" to since I won't be adding the live rock until it is cured. Is that correct?

You have to have something organic that is either living or dying or decomposing to produce ammonia. Usually that is handled by the live rock when you cycle a tank. What I did, since I started out with just dead Southdown sand, was to throw in a 4"x2"x1/2" thick piece of fish from the freezer on top of the dead sand so that it would decompose, producing ammonia that would result in bacteria. Or you could throw in two or three shrimp from the supermarket. If you want to be able to remove the resultant detritus completely, just place them in an old stocking or a mesh filter bag or something. That way you can take it out several days later. I added fully cured live rock (that was in transit for about 18 hours) about ten days after starting the tank's cycle with dead sand and a piece of raw fish.

Naturally I had a certain amount of dieoff from the live rock, but very little. Obviously the live rock itself will already have a thriving population of bacteria, so eventually your whole system will be full of beneficial bacteria, including your sand bed.

If you want to, you could add some live sand to your dead sand at any point IF you are not planning on sticking uncured live rock in your tank.

[bguile]

Thanks. That makes sense. I'll add some live sand after giving the sand time to settle so that the critters have a couple weeks to do what they do and multiply before I put anything in the tank.

However, that leads me to another question. We know ammonia is not good, but after we add everything to the tank we need to cycle the tank by raising the ammonia and wait till it subsides. Wouldn't this kill the life on the rock and any life in the sand? I guess I'm confused b/c we don't want to put anything in the tank until ammonia is undetectable, but yet we need to have the ammonia spike and go away for the initial cycle.

[Reefland]

The ammonia spike is necessary to build the bacteria populations that are required to convert ammonia to nitrite, which in turn builds the required bacteria populations to convert nitrite to nitrate... The bacteria are not affected by the ammonia or nitrite because that is their source of existance.

[bguile]

Ok. I understand. So if I add sand and "live sand" to my tank and drop a couple raw shrimp to start the cycle, do I have to cycle the tank again once my LR has cured and I add it to the tank?

Thanks for your help guys

[Reefland]

No the tank will not go through another cycle and the liverock will have support bacteria populations as will the tank and sand. That is provided you are able to minimize the amount of time the cured liverock is out of water which you should be able to since your curing it yourself.

[bguile]

Originally Posted by Reefland

No the tank will not go through another cycle and the liverock will have support bacteria populations as will the tank and sand. That is provided you are able to minimize the amount of time the cured liverock is out of water which you should be able to since your curing it yourself.

How long would I have with the rock out of the water once it's cured before it would cause a spike in ammonia? I want to lay out my rock on a table and get an idea of how I want to layout the aquascape like Ninong did. Thanks for the other info also. I will seed my sand and get the cycle started as soon as I can. My rock was partially cured and didn't have much stench when it arrived so I'm not expecting the curing to take longer than a week or two. Now all I have to do is remember where I saw that southdown.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bguile

How long would I have with the rock out of the water once it's cured before it would cause a spike in ammonia? I want to lay out my rock on a table and get an idea of how I want to layout the aquascape like Ninong did. Thanks for the other info also. I will seed my sand and get the cycle started as soon as I can. My rock was partially cured and didn't have much stench when it arrived so I'm not expecting the curing to take longer than a week or two. Now all I have to do is remember where I saw that southdown.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously certain lifeforms die rather quickly when removed from seawater (e.g., sponges) but having your live rock laid out on the table, or the floor, for a couple of hours will not cause much harm unless you are concerned about something valuable that is already growing on your rock. If the rock was cured when you laid it out on the table, it will not cause much ammonia at all when it is placed in the tank -- certainly not enough to be of concern if you don't have any fish or inverts in the tank yet.

This is not the same as the problems that you could run into when placing uncured live rock in a tank. Some folks experience ammonia spikes as high as 4 ppm when using uncured live rock. Ammonia levels that high could be harmful to any newly purchased true live sand or "detritivore kits." Which is why it is best to wait until after measuring your tank's water parameters before paying good money for such items. If you know ahead of time that your live rock is fully cured, then you could go ahead and add some real live sand right away. There is no reason to rush to add your "detritivore kit" or "clean-up crew" -- get the live rock in the tank, measure your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates for three or four days and then order your stuff. Assuming that your live rock was cured first, your ammonia will probably not exceed 0.5 ppm and your nitrites will probably not exceed 1 or 2 ppm and both will probably drop within a couple of days to practically nothing. At least that was my experience and my fully cured live rock had to be shipped overnight from South Carolina.