upgrading to a 430 gallon

[swmccon]

Hi folks. I have been in this hobby for a year and am totally hooked. We now have 4 tanks in our house ranging from 10g nano to 120g. I have decided to upgrade the 120 to a 430g in wall where I can create a fish room. I have read through a number of threads and would like to get the advice of this group.

The new tank equipment is still wide open and I'd like to leverage what I can from the old tank. The new tank will be acrylic, 78"x36"x36" with a side overflow and a sump (size TBD). Like the 120g I plan to use for corals, clams, lr, etc.

So here are a group of questions in no particular order:


1) on the 120g I have two 250W MH and 2 actinic in a 4' retro. I want to reuse this and then add one additional 250w MH. Does this sound right?

2) what size pump will I need for all this? the vertical lift will be about 6' max.

3) Any ideas on how the 120g can be used in this configuration. Is it too big for a refugium?

4) I have read about using play sand as a base and then live sand on top. Seems like a reasonable option since I'll be taking down the 120g and will have lots of live sand (and rock) available from it.

5) I've been thinking through the actual move from the 120g to the 430g. I want to use the sand, the rock, and the inhabitants as I move. My thoughts are to:

a) set up the new tank
b) add new live rock and playsand (perhaps some live sand)
c) let the tank cycle with the new rock
d) move the sand and lr from the 120g to the new tank
e) move the creatures and coral

One challenge will be moving and placing the 120 sand when the 430g has rock already placed. Any thoughts on this issue or any other logistics?

6) I know I'll need a larger skimmer and calc reactor. Are the smaller versions of any use (Skimmer is a seaclone, calc is a single chamber Korralin c1501)?

7) Any other questions I should be asking?

Thanks in advance for your support. I am very excited about this new tank... the fun starts in Nov.

[Ninong]

So here are a group of questions in no particular order:

1) on the 120g I have two 250W MH and 2 actinic in a 4' retro. I want to reuse this and then add one additional 250w MH. Does this sound right?

Lighting is always a subjective question. What sounds "right" to one person may sound inadequate to others. It is possible to use 250w metal halide lamps over a 36" tall reef aquarium but most people would opt for 400w -- some might even consider 1000w but they would be the exception. Michael Moye (64Ivy) uses 250w metal halides over his 539-gallon, 36" tall reef tank.

When you say that the new tank will have a "side overflow," do you mean that it will have the overflow on just one side or both sides? The only reason this relates to lighting is that it affects the available area that needs to be illuminated. Another factor to take into consideration is the location of the acrylic cross braces on the top of the tank. You should try to have each metal halide lamp over an opening in the top of the tank so that none of the metal halide lamps is directly above an acrylic brace.

It is not possible to adequately light a tank that is 36" front-to-back with just one row of 250w metal halide lamps, even if you use parallel reflectors rather than the usual perpendicular reflectors, your coverage will be incomplete. But this is another of those subjective judgments. Some folks may be satisfied with that arrangement, especially if the tank is viewable on both long sides, which yours won't be. The reason for that is that a tank that is viewable on both long sides would have about 6" of open space in front of the rock structure on both sides so that only about 24" in the middle would be critical when it comes to lighting. That sort of arrangement with adequate fluorescent actinic supplementation would suffice for that sort of a tank.

If I were trying to light a tank such as you described and I wanted to utilize my existing lighting, I might consider adding three 400w metal halides lamps in addition to the existing two 250w halides. Again, my choices would change depending on the configuration of the top of the acrylic tank. Personally, I like the appearance of a combination of 10,000K and 20,000K halides with a good deal of actinic supplementation -- either VHO or T5.

It's really a matter of personal preferences and whatever you choose will work for you if you select your tank's inhabitants and their placement in accordance with your lighting restrictions.

2) what size pump will I need for all this? the vertical lift will be about 6' max.

There are several good brands to choose from. Most hobbyists are going with closed loops or Tunze Streams to provide supplemental current in addition to the flow through the sump. It is difficult to manage more than about 2,000 gph through most reasonably sized sumps but you can double or triple that total flow by adding closed loops or Tunze Streams. You might consider something that would give you a minimum of 1500 gph through the sump and then add a closed loop that would give you another 3000 gph or use four Tunze Streams instead of a closed loop.

3) Any ideas on how the 120g can be used in this configuration. Is it too big for a refugium?

The old 120-gal would make a nice refugium for a 430-gal tank or you could set it aside as a quarantine tank or a coral propagation tank. It is certainly not "too big" for a refugium. Some people have refugia that are just as large as their main display tank.

4) I have read about using play sand as a base and then live sand on top. Seems like a reasonable option since I'll be taking down the 120g and will have lots of live sand (and rock) available from it.

Just be sure that you are getting "tropical play sand" and not regular play sand. IMO the aragonite play sand is much, much nicer for a reef aquarium. However, a word of caution is in order at this point. Using fine particle aragonite sand may restrict your options when it comes to choosing your total water flow package. It can be done but it can be tricky. Kevinpo is using a DSB of fine particle aragonite sand in his 550-gal reef aquarium with fairly strong water current but some people who have opted for extreme water current have gone with either a bare bottom (64Ivy) or a larger particle DSB (Wayne Shang). I'm not trying to discourage you from choosing a fine particle DSB but I just want to point out that this is an area that has to be considered carefully in advance because of its impact on your total water current equipment and its placement.

Kevinpo: http://www.reefland.com/gallery/show...r=2049&cat=500

64Ivy: http://www.reefland.com/feature504.php

Steve Weast: http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_gallery.htm

Wayne Shang: http://www.underseadiscovery.com/gadget2.htm (Check out his two Korallin C-10002 calcium reactors!)

5) I've been thinking through the actual move from the 120g to the 430g. I want to use the sand, the rock, and the inhabitants as I move. My thoughts are to:

a) set up the new tank
b) add new live rock and playsand (perhaps some live sand)
c) let the tank cycle with the new rock
d) move the sand and lr from the 120g to the new tank
e) move the creatures and coral

Do not add any live sand until you finish cycling the new live rock and new dead sand. Since you intend moving your existing live rock and live sand into the new aquarium, there is no need for you to purchase any live sand at this point. DO NOT attempt to move the entire sand bed from the old tank to the new tank. This is never a wise choice. It is MUCH safer to simply utilize the top 3/4" - 1" layer of the existing sand bed and discard the rest.

Another way to do this would be to cycle the new live rock in the new tank without any sand bed at all. Then add the sand after the rock is fully cured. Or you could go with fully cured live rock from the start. The advantage to using fully cured live rock is that you could set up the new tank all at once without having to do this more than once. In this scenario you would add your new dead sand bed, then add your live rock (both the new fully cured live rock and the live rock from the 120-gal tank), then add enough live sand from the top layer of your 120-gal tank to get things off to a good start. This can be done safely if the new live rock is really fully cured. You could always leave the corals and fish with some of the live rock in the 120-gal tank for the first 24 hours or so to make sure that the water in the new tank is OK. There will be very little, if any, ammonia spike if you use fully cured live rock and some of the existing water and live rock from the old tank. This is really not much different than moving from one tank to another.

If you want to be super safe, just put the dead sand plus some of the live sand from the old tank into the new tank with some of the live rock from the old tank and check the water parameters for 48 hours before adding the rest of the live rock from the old tank and the livestock from the old tank. Then discard the rest of the substrate in the old tank and clean it out. Now use the old 120-gal tank to cure your new live rock if it is not fully cured before adding it to the new tank.

The thing you want to avoid, if possible, is having to add sand (of any kind) after the new tank is up and running. This is always a messy experience.

6) I know I'll need a larger skimmer and calc reactor. Are the smaller versions of any use (Skimmer is a seaclone, calc is a single chamber Korralin c1501)?

The SeaClone skimmer is of no use whatsoever. You will need a good quality skimmer that is adequate for your new system. There are several possibilities but you do not want to skimp in this area. The Korallin 1501 is totally inadequate for your new system but it might be possible to add a second chamber or another calcium reactor in sequence with the 1501. I would probably sell the 1501 and start off with something larger. Look at the two 42" tall Korallin calcium reactors Wayne is using: http://www.underseadiscovery.com/gadget2.htm

Any other questions I should be asking?

Yes! Lots and lots of other questions. Take your time and research this setup in advance. You may want to spend at least two or three months going over the possibilities. Hopefully you already realize the probable expense involved and that won't be an issue.

[swmccon]

This is very helpful.... Since I'm still fairly new, ther's a few questions that I have about your recommendations.

1) Lighting - I think I got this. FYI, the overflow is on one side but the overflow area is in addition to the 78" length I quoted. New question: The existing retro is one I purchased from a local guy. If I wanted to build my own, where can you point me for parts and instruction? I assume I can save $'s using the DIY approach on lighting.

2) water flow - sorry for my ignorance here.... what is a closed loop? Is it simply a pump that recirculates without filtering? Do I need to build this into the aquarium design or is it like the sump return where the nozzles enter over the top of the aquarium?

Thanks again.. the other topics I think I understand.

[Poseidon]

WOw great answer Ninong... Like you ever give any other kind.

Yes a closed loop is a very simple input output set up. You can prefilter the water to prevent large particles from entering the pump. I would just use some sort of screen to keep fish and snails from entering the pump.

[Ninong]

1) Lighting - I think I got this. FYI, the overflow is on one side but the overflow area is in addition to the 78" length I quoted. New question: The existing retro is one I purchased from a local guy. If I wanted to build my own, where can you point me for parts and instruction? I assume I can save $'s using the DIY approach on lighting.

If you are going to have your tank built into the wall with the tank actually inside the equipment room, you will have lots of options for lighting that you wouldn't have if the tank were fully inside the viewing room with an enclosed canopy. Check out the way others have done this. Look at Steve Weast's lighting setup and 64Ivy's lighting setup for starters.

One option would be to build a canopy of sorts that can be moved out of the way to provide access to the tank for maintenance (a la Steve Weast). Another option would be to use ready-made light fixtures that can be suspended from the ceiling and adjusted up and down as needed. Going with any sort of canopy pretty much means a DIY project. Going with an open top and suspended fixtures would require nothing more than buying the fixtures and hanging them above the tank. There are many new fixtures that combine metal halides with actinics. Check out Aqua-Medic http://www.aqua-medic.de/index0.html and Giesemann http://www.giesemannlicht.com/page.php?page=home and Sunlight Supply http://www.sunlightsupply.com/aquarium/index.shtml for starters. There are several good places to purchase either complete fixtures or DIY retro kits, including Custom Aquatic http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/index.asp and Premium Aquatics http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...nt.mvc?log=yes and Marine Depot http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage....and_banner&key= among others. I have personal experience with those three vendors and recommend them.

2) water flow - sorry for my ignorance here.... what is a closed loop? Is it simply a pump that recirculates without filtering?

There are three basic ways to get the water moving in your aquarium:

(1) Use a sump with a system return pump to pump the water that drains into the sump back into the tank via standard plumbed outlets or Sea-Swirls.

(2) Use a few to several powerheads in the tank for extra water movement. Tunze Streams are fancy, very powerful powerheads that put out tremendous water flow.

(3) Add a closed loop. A closed loop consists of a pump that draws water directly from the aquarum (usually through a pre-drilled bulkhead with strainer) and returns it back into the aquarium, usually through either pre-drilled outlets or Sea-Swirls. There are many variations on this theme using some of the newer switching devices.

I would suggest that for a 430-gal aquarium you should consider at least 1500 gph through the sump plus another 3000 gph using either a closed loop or Tunze Streams.

[PowderBlueTypeR]

Dayam Ninong, you are officially the fish king!!