[NoSump]

I have been cycling a new tank, and have noticed after several water changes that my Nitrate level has continued to hover around 20-30PPM. I checked my tap water prior to putting it in my tank and was surprised to get a reading of 20-30PPM for Nitrates. Is that a common level of Nitrates in tap water? I have not tested for Phosphates, but plan to do so. I have requested a technical analysis of my water quality from my water company.

My goal is to get the Nitrates closer to zero prior to introducing lifestock.

I have noticed that filter media such as "DeNitrate", "Purigen", etc. claim to help with Nitrate control. Are they effective? Is my best strategy given my water supply to purchase an R/0 device in order to purify my tap water (otherwise every time I do a water change, I'll be putting nitrates back into my tank - pointless)?

I also assume that over time, my biological media in my canister filter (Rena XP3 - for a 72Gal tank, I opted not to go the sump route, hence "NoSump") should become more effective in breaking down Nitrates.

I am also a bit light on my live rock - I only have 45lbs (I plan to add another 30 - 40 lbs). Also, I have not activated my Skimmer yet, will the skimmer remove nitrates?

I know that there are alot of questions in this thread, but since water quality is the most important issue in reef keeping I want to be sure to nail it down before moving to the next step. Thanks.

[Poseidon]

Is that a common level of Nitrates in tap water?

Yes it is very common. Hence the need for a RO/DI unit.

I have noticed that filter media such as "DeNitrate", "Purigen", etc. claim to help with Nitrate control. Are they effective? Is my best strategy given my water supply to purchase an R/0 device in order to purify my tap water (otherwise every time I do a water change, I'll be putting nitrates back into my tank - pointless)?

I have never used these products, so I can't comment here. And YES an RO/DI is the answer.

I also assume that over time, my biological media in my canister filter (Rena XP3 - for a 72Gal tank, I opted not to go the sump route, hence "NoSump") should become more effective in breaking down Nitrates.

Sorry, the canister filter will break down NH3 and NO2, but does not have the capacity or ability to break down the NItrates, this filter could CONTRIBUTE to your problem rather then help.

I am also a bit light on my live rock - I only have 45lbs (I plan to add another 30 - 40 lbs). Also, I have not activated my Skimmer yet, will the skimmer remove nitrates?

Yes a skimmer will help substantially, not by removing the nitrates directly, but by removing the waste BEFORE they are broken down by the nitrogen cycle.

I know that there are alot of questions in this thread, but since water quality is the most important issue in reef keeping I want to be sure to nail it down before moving to the next step. Thanks.

Exactly!

[NoSump]

Quote:

Sorry, the canister filter will break down NH3 and NO2, but does not have the capacity or ability to break down the NItrates, this filter could CONTRIBUTE to your problem rather then help.


Thank you. I had a feeling that an R/O would be needed. I just got back from the LFS with snails, and an R/O - it's amazing the crap that we are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for in this hobby!

In terms of my canister, I have a biological filtration media in one of the trays (balls). While I understand that this is not as desirable of a set-up as a sump, I assume that it does aford some bilogical filtration. Am I wrong?

[Poseidon]

Yes it will provide 2/3 of the filtration you need. It is also a great place to put carbon for the chemical filtration. The way I understand the nitrogen cycle, and I am sure Ninong will correct me if I am wrong, is that the bacteria that break down NH3 and NO2 are aerobic (meaning in the presence of oxygen) and the bacteria that break down NO3 are anaerobic (meaning NOT in the presence of oxygen) NO3 is broken down DEEP inside the liverock, or DEEP in the sandbed, places that water does not flow. Your canister filter has no such places. That is why I think you would be better off without the canister and just using the skimmer. The skimmer will remove the waste BEFORE it gets into the nitrogen cycle, eliminating the production of Nitrate (NO3) all together. It will also increase the ORP levels (dissolved O2 content) by allowing thousands of times the surface area your tank would have otherwise. (Oxygenation takes place anywhere water and air meet, like the surface of the tank, or in the skimmers case the surface of all those BUBBLES!) This method of filtration (called the Berlin Method) is, at least for me, by far the EASIEST and least labor intensive. It is not neccessarily the least expensive at start up though, because you need a Big Ol Skimmer and lots of live rock! But after you have plunked down the cash it is the cheapest to maintain, there are no cartridges to replace, or canisters to clean, just empty the skimmer cup and do your water changes! It is the essence of the KISS principle: Keep It Simple Stupid!

[NoSump]

Poseidon:

Thank you again for your helpful advice. As a non-technical person, I am a big advocate of the KISS principle. I have read about the Berlin method. With my past experience in fresh water, it seems counterintuitive to forego mechanical filtration. Obviously, from the pictures of your tank, it works very well (when done properly). As I add live rock (I picked up some Solomans Islands rock yesterday, that looks very good), and learn more about this hobby, I may migrate toward that approach over time.

If you remember our discussion thread (with Nonong) regarding snails, crabs, and other assorted "critters", despite your advice (which I'm sure is acurate) I did purchase 5 dwarf red hermits yesterday (along with a small selection of Astrea, and Nassarius Vibex.

It's pretty pathetic, at this point (5 weeks, and $2,000+), I'm enjoying sitting in my office watching the tiny little buggers move around my cloudy tank. It's the only life my tank has seen! I can tell already that you are right about the hermits, on three ocassions, I have caught the crabs getting up close and personal with Astrea snails. Since I only purchased 5 of the dwarfs, If I start to lose snails, I will dispose of the crabs (and forego any future hermits).


One other question, everything that I have read has discouraged gathering live sand in the "wild" (based on polution and potential pest species introduction). Do you think that would it be risky for me to gather some live sand from the bottom (and far from land) of the Chesapeake Bay? If I did gather the sand, would the creatures that come from that termperate zone be able to survive in the tropical conditions that exist in a reef tank? My rationale would be for the purposes of a more varied sand bed - and not in order to save money (although that's not a bad reason either).

[Poseidon]

I would say no to the Chesapeake bay idea. The temperate creatures usually will not survive long in the tropics. When I first started I purchased some of those snails on E-bay that were labled "Nassarious" when in fact they were snails from a more temperant area Illynissa Obsolatta (sorry I know that name is not right but it is close I hope), they did not do any HARM, but after 5-6 months I couldn't find them anymore either. I have also tried Margarita snails, and they Eat a ton of algae while they last, but they too are from more temperate waters and don't last as long as Astrea and Trochus snails. In addition to the shorter lifespan I think the risks of adding "unknowns" to the tank out weighs any potential benefits. Your sand bed will soon have all kinds of critters in it, I have tons and tons of life in there and most if not all of it came from my live rock purchases.

Actually the snails I tried were Ilyanassa Obsoleta just wanted to correct myself...

[NoSump]

Thanks, that makes sense.

I've also seen those snails on ebay (and I believe there are a few sellers on this site as well). I think most of them are "harvasted" in the NC and SC (far from tropical).

[NoSump]

Poseidon:

I've read several of your other posts regarding the Berlin Sytem. I am becoming more interested in the idea. When I was planning my origninal purchase of my reef tank, I was tempted to buy a "reef ready" tank. I just didn't like the idea of a sump under my main tank, and all of the associated plumbing, and pumps, etc (although I understand that the vast majority of successful reefers go the sump route). As I am learning more about this hobby, I am becomming increasingly aware of the downsides of my "canister decision". Since the canister can easily be moved to a fresh water tank, and was not a major investment (<$200), I will have no problem scraping the approach.

I have a few questions regarding the Berlin method - Does Berlin entirely remove the need for a sump?

I changed my substrate to all sand recently (from a mixed aragonite, crushed coral base). My tank is finally clearing. I have about a 2-3 inch base. How much would I need to increase my sand bed?

My tank is a 72 Gallon bowfront - How much live rock would I need (I now have only 50 lbs). Since the live rock plays such an important role in the process, are there specific types of LR that are more appropriate?

My HOT skimmer is the Remora Pro w/Mag 3 (I also have the prefilter box - I have a bag of carbon and a poly filiter in the return bay). Would that skimmer/configuration be sufficient for a successful Berlin set-up?

Everything that I have read has cautioned that the Berliln method should be left to "experienced aquarists". You are obviously no rookie to this hobby, is it really as idiot proof as you suggest? Is the Berlin method gradually becoming more "mainstream" within the hobby?

I would assume that a safe approach would be to add sand and live rock, and start by simply turning off the canister (but maintain the set-up), test water daily, and if problems occur re-activate the canister.

The idea of a lower maintenance, more natural reef tank is very appealing.


Thanks for the suggestion, and sorry for the plethora of questions.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by NoSump

I have a few questions regarding the Berlin method - Does Berlin entirely remove the need for a sump?

The sump is just plain BENEFICIAL! It doesn't matter what approach you want to use. Again, the sump adds VOLUME, gives you a place to put heaters, skimmers, and grow macro algae that will will reduce the amount of nutrients in the water, slowing the growth of nuisance algae in the tank.

I changed my substrate to all sand recently (from a mixed aragonite, crushed coral base). My tank is finally clearing. I have about a 2-3 inch base. How much would I need to increase my sand bed?

I have 4" of DSB, but I think a solid 3 would be plenty.

My tank is a 72 Gallon bowfront - How much live rock would I need (I now have only 50 lbs). Since the live rock plays such an important role in the process, are there specific types of LR that are more appropriate?

As long as you add your livestock slowly, I would just mix in lace rock at this point. Over time the lace rock gains the same properties as the rock you purchased as "live"

My HOT skimmer is the Remora Pro w/Mag 3 (I also have the prefilter box - I have a bag of carbon and a poly filiter in the return bay). Would that skimmer/configuration be sufficient for a successful Berlin set-up?

Maybe, the remora is a good skimmer, but TRUST ME, once you see the crap that a full size skimmer pulls out and compare that to what the remora pulls out you will see what I mean!

Everything that I have read has cautioned that the Berliln method should be left to "experienced aquarists". You are obviously no rookie to this hobby, is it really as idiot proof as you suggest? Is the Berlin method gradually becoming more "mainstream" within the hobby?

WHere did you read that? I guess everyone has opinions, but this is so simple, why wouldn't you want to go this route? If it came from a store that would make sense, since it is bad for business.

I would assume that a safe approach would be to add sand and live rock, and start by simply turning off the canister (but maintain the set-up), test water daily, and if problems occur re-activate the canister

Nope, ditch that CANister altogether, or just use it for carbon. DO NOT let it sit without water flowing, it will pollute your tank in major way.

The idea of a lower maintenance, more natural reef tank is very appealing.

Yup, that's why I do it this way!

Thanks for the suggestion, and sorry for the plethora of questions.

Your Welcome, and NO PROBLEM!

[NoSump]

Posiedon:



Quote:

As long as you add your livestock slowly, I would just mix in lace rock at this point. Over time the lace rock gains the same properties as the rock you purchased as "live" /Quote

As always, thank you for your very helpful and straight to the point advice. I wish I would have spent a day on this site before I purchased a single item for my reef set-up. I would have been spared alot of time, and expense.

Can you elaborate on the above quote. I have over 30 lbs of lace rock in the tank now (in addition to my live rock), and have removed another 30 lbs as I have added live rock. I thought that lace rock was of no value other than as decoration.

How does lace rock gain the same properties as live rock? I thought that live rock's coral foundation and porus nature was what allowed it to become "home" to organisms. My understanding is that lace rock is just plain "rock" which is neither porus nor "live". I would love to use my lace rock and not need to spend another $6.00 per lb. on live rock!