Biggest Newbie Ever - Question

[gummi_67]

Hi All.

Greetings from Toronto. I have always wanted a salt water aquarium ever since I was a kid. I finally bought a house and have the room for it so I'm going to jump into this hobby and venture. I considered and almost ventured into freshwater because of ease but I know my heart really lies in the colour, vibrance, and energy of saltwater.

I am a total novice. I've never had and aquarium ever. I've been doing my research and know some stuff but I'm going to need a lot of guidance. Hope y'all don't mind.

I've decided to go with a 55 Gallon glass tank which I want to put maybe two yellow Angelfish, two or three clown fish (Nemos), and maybe one little blowfish.

What else do I need? I know I need a filtration system, crush/rocks/sand..., 55 - 110 lbs of live rock and possibly a protein skimmer.

Is a glass tank a glass tank or is there some type of quality standard I should be looking for?

Is it cheaper to buy a 'package' from a store or make a list of what I need and buy them piece by piece online and on ebay?

I seem to be having a hard time finding the correct answers. Retail stores I feel just want to sell me stuff and make money - but what do I really need? What is necessary? What isn't.

Based on some searches I've run it looks like the Aqua C Remora and Euroreef protein skimmers are the best.

My budget I'm trying to do all this with is $500 - $700 CAD.

Any insight, suggestions, links... would be appreciated. Thanks for your help!

[BubbaWPB]

Hey Gummi! Welcome to Reefland!

Before you start buying anything, I'd suggest you do a lot of reading... you'll save money in the long run and heartache as well. The following link takes you to a thread about good books. The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner is a classic and a good place to start. http://www.reefland.com/forum/saltwa...oks#post101742

Good luck!

[charlesr1958]

This page should help you in Starting Out.

Chuck

[smidoid]

Read, read, read and then read some more. Read the web, read some books, talk to guys at the fish store (LFS) and browse through the archives here.

You need three things in abundance. Patience, knowledge and deep pockets.

I heartily recommend you also include a PROPER sump - that will give your system extra headroom to grow bacteria and it'll give you somewhere to put the skimmer, heater and pumps. It also

Set up your tank with live rock (LR) and all the stuff and run in as if it *had* fish in - heaters, lights, everything - for at six to eight weeks! (You don't *need* to skim during this period, some say you do, others not. I prefer not to but that requires that you've gotten cured LR).

During that time the tank will start to cycle and you can start to test... after that, you'll be ready to add some resilient fish.

Even after that, be prepared to lose stuff and screw up. The reward of this hobby is not that things come easy, it's because they take effort.

[gummi_67]

Good information. Thanks.

I guess I didn't know as much as I thought that I did.

I was going to buy a package deal from a big reputable store here in Toronto (Big Als) for $299 which included salt, the 55 gallon tank, a few books, the sand, ph test kit, heater... (etc.). Basically I would just have to buy a skimmer, Live rock, and fish.

Does this sound like a good starting point? I mean just for the tank and a few important components. Then I can start to add the water and rock (etc) over a few weeks/months.

I don't intend to have any fish in there for a while...

I will check up on those articles to read.

Also, in regards to posting, is it better that I keep all my questions within this thread or start other ones for other issues?

[Reefland]

Hi gummy,

First, I think you should look at a 75 gallon tank. They aren't much more expensive comapred to a 55 gallon and the added depth provides a lot of visual appeal in comparison. Secondly, look for a reef ready tank, one that is drilled with a built-in overflow which allows you to more easily incorporate a sump for added water volume and holding equipment.
http://www.reefland.com/rho/2006/05/overflows_sumps.php

Thirdly, do not bother with buying a tank setm usually they come with mid to low line equipment which won't last long or give you the performance you will soon want. It is best, in my opinion, to piece your system together. In your case, look for a tank, sump, return pump, lighting, heater, powerheads for water movement and a good protein skimmer.

[whatevva]

I agree, don't buy a "kit"

Research each and every piece and listen to peoples comments on such. You'll avoid a TON of headaches and save a bunch of money.
Good Luck!!

[BubbaWPB]

I was going to buy a package deal from a big reputable store here in Toronto (Big Als) for $299 which included salt, the 55 gallon tank, a few books, the sand, ph test kit, heater... (etc.). Basically I would just have to buy a skimmer, Live rock, and fish.

Big Al's has opened a store in Ft. Lauderdale - it is possible to find good deals at Big Al's, but frankly, they carry low end (cheap) equipment (skimmers, etc.). Some of the staff (but not all) are able to tell the difference between a protein skimmer and batfish.

You can get a good deal on a tank/stand/canopy, and you can usually find good deals on some dry goods (live rock, sand, salt). The package tanks usually come with sufficient lighting for FOWLR (fish only with live rock), but woefully inadequate if you plan on keeping corals, other coelenterates (anemones), or tridacnid clams.

I'd suggest you not skimp on the protein skimmer, and I'd second the suggestion you get a sump.

Again, read before you buy. You will no doubt come across conflicting info in different readings, so don't hesitate to use the search function here on Reefland (and on Google for that matter), and don't hesitate to ask lots of questions.

[gummi_67]

So where do you guys buy your equipment? Any Canadians here?

Through research I'm looking at a 75 gallon - 90 gallon but I'm not sure where to get one. Glass, not acrylic.

I have to admit that the idea of a sump seems intimidating but does make sense. Is a sump somthing that can be added later?

Also, I know a 'reef ready' tank is predriled to mount hardware on/in. But I don't understande what an overflow is. Is it a separate chamber in the tank?

[gummi_67]

Also, I ordered that book recommended:

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists

Only amazing reviews on this book. Looking forward to reading it.

[k3djd]

i am also new at saltwater if you look on craigslist: san francisco bay area classifieds for jobs, apartments, personals, for sale, services, community, and events in you're local area you might find a really good deal on everything you need thats how i got alot of my stuff hope it helps have fun and yes it costs alot but worth it in the end don

[Reefland]

Did you take a look at the article I linked to? That should explain the sump/overflow concept.

[gummi_67]

Did you take a look at the article I linked to? That should explain the sump/overflow concept.

Yes, I did and it was good information. It helped me understand it more but I suppose I'm more of a visual learner and seeing it in person would help me understand it more. I understand the concept of a sump but I'm still not clear on what 'reef ready with an overflow' is. Overflow to where? The sump?

Thanks for the help!

[smidoid]

You "overflow" (drain) some water from your display into your "sump" (the container below your display). The sump can be simple or it can be complex. Mine has a skimmer and biofilter made from LR, LS and all sorts of live critters plus some macro algae and a lamp to keep it all ticking over.

The reason for this is that it keeps the water continually mixing without making a lot of bubbles - this is good for gas exchange and great for the bacteria. Some sort of sump is a great idea for most setups.

A sump is really a small tank in its own right - and some folk make it exactly that! Other people have VERY complex sumps with kalkwasser gens and loads of goodies. It depends on your application, skill and budget.

"Reef ready with overflow" sounds like a kit - or a perhaps a pre-drilled tank. I prefer the custom option - just make sure you can get the tank YOU pick drilled. This is only possible on acrylic or certain types of glass - not toughened stuff.

[gummi_67]

Thanks, that is helpful.

What about not doing a sump. What would my tank look like if I went with a 75 gallon with a skimmer (over the tank). Minimal live rock (40lbs?) with good filtration, regular water changes, and a cleanup crew. I'd house one yellow tang, one powder blue tang, and two clown fish. Would this be a safe bet? Of course all introduced slowly over time following the appropriate maturing guidelines...

[smidoid]

Well, IIRC you'll need a minimum of 75lbs of LR (1lb to 1.5lb per gal).

I'm very pro sump (mainly because it keeps almost everything like heaters and filters, etc. out of sight). However, a lot of folk run sumpless with great success. (Some beginners go "commando" and don't even use LR! That's tantamount to disaster IMO - water only setups need careful planning and excellent filtration.)

As for livestock, I can't be much help as I don't have experience of tangs. Hopefully someone with exerience of that kind of setup would be able to help more.

Four fish in a 75g would look a bit lost, BTW. You'd soon want to add more.

[gummi_67]

Ya, I figured that if I wasn't going with a sump I'd maybe do a little less fish to not pollute the water.

I'd consider a sump-less system to reduce costs. I'm a believer of doing it right or not doing it at all - but the more i research I see people without sumps with hang on filters. Maybe I can get creative with hiding them somehow.

I agree that LR is a great idea but again when I look at the costs involved with $7 per pound it really (honestly) scares me away from this hobby a bit or makes me want to only consider a 30G cube with a few clown fish.

A 75g, live rock, sump, skimmer, and livestock will be quite the dollar - although I know this is cheap compared to what a lot of other people have on this board. it's just getting a bit over my budget so I'm looking for alternatives to get the fish I want in a safe and happy environment to fall more into my price range. Either that or go freshwater or save for a longer period of time.

[DW62]

I understand how you can feel overwhelmed in this hobby. I started my tank a little less than a year ago and I wish I had done what you are doing - research, read, make your list, and then buy!As one "newbie" to another, here are some lessons I have learned:Get a protein skimmer rated higher than your tank. Takes the worry out of whether your skimmer is adequate. You don't want that $65 Purple Tang and $40 Flame Angel to fall over dead because you skimped $50 on your skimmer!Go pre-drilled on your tank. Hides equipment, you don't have to hassle with making sure your overflow is set right, and you don't have the problems of snails or other critters getting into the overflow and clogging it!Equipment on the internet is MUCH cheaper than most LFS stores. Premiumaquatics.com has outstanding LR for as low as $3.50/lb., for example.Use quality test kits, such as Saliferts. I started with cheap ones like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, and the readings were totally different compared to Saliferts, which is much more accurate. I lost some fish because of this.DEFINITELY use a sump! You can get DIY designs here on the internet that would cost you very little (less than $50 American dollars) to make using a small 15 or 20 gallon tank. You can keep all the unsightly equipment away from view, and putting macro-algae such as caulerpa or chaeto in your sump helps to keep nitrates down (especially helpful for those like me who like to feed, feed, and feed their fish!). Top-Offs. Again, you can get cheap float valves for as little as $10 in the internet, hook up to a hose leading to a bucket, adjust the float in the sump to your water line, and - VOILA! - you keep your aquarium filled without having to keep adding water every day or so (just don't use saltwater for top-off!)Research the inhabitants of your tanks! For example, many fish "experts" will tell you that a 55 gallon is WAAAAY too small for one tang, let alone two. Also, tangs have a habit of being territorial, and will possibly fight each other if not put in the tank at the same time.And last, but VERY important: Use RO/DI water! Normal tap water has too many chemicals, such as chloriene, phosphates (which causes ugly algae blooms), and sometimes copper (which is fatal to saltwater!). If you don't have access to RO water, distilled water can be used.Hope this is helpful. The best thing about this hobby is nobody knows everything, and the research and education are half the fun!!!

[BubbaWPB]

Welcome to Reefland, DW62!

[gummi_67]

I understand how you can feel overwhelmed in this hobby. I started my tank a little less than a year ago and I wish I had done what you are doing - research, read, make your list, and then buy!As one "newbie" to another, here are some lessons I have learned:Get a protein skimmer rated higher than your tank. Takes the worry out of whether your skimmer is adequate. You don't want that $65 Purple Tang and $40 Flame Angel to fall over dead because you skimped $50 on your skimmer!Go pre-drilled on your tank. Hides equipment, you don't have to hassle with making sure your overflow is set right, and you don't have the problems of snails or other critters getting into the overflow and clogging it!Equipment on the internet is MUCH cheaper than most LFS stores. Premiumaquatics.com has outstanding LR for as low as $3.50/lb., for example.Use quality test kits, such as Saliferts. I started with cheap ones like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, and the readings were totally different compared to Saliferts, which is much more accurate. I lost some fish because of this.DEFINITELY use a sump! You can get DIY designs here on the internet that would cost you very little (less than $50 American dollars) to make using a small 15 or 20 gallon tank. You can keep all the unsightly equipment away from view, and putting macro-algae such as caulerpa or chaeto in your sump helps to keep nitrates down (especially helpful for those like me who like to feed, feed, and feed their fish!). Top-Offs. Again, you can get cheap float valves for as little as $10 in the internet, hook up to a hose leading to a bucket, adjust the float in the sump to your water line, and - VOILA! - you keep your aquarium filled without having to keep adding water every day or so (just don't use saltwater for top-off!)Research the inhabitants of your tanks! For example, many fish "experts" will tell you that a 55 gallon is WAAAAY too small for one tang, let alone two. Also, tangs have a habit of being territorial, and will possibly fight each other if not put in the tank at the same time.And last, but VERY important: Use RO/DI water! Normal tap water has too many chemicals, such as chloriene, phosphates (which causes ugly algae blooms), and sometimes copper (which is fatal to saltwater!). If you don't have access to RO water, distilled water can be used.Hope this is helpful. The best thing about this hobby is nobody knows everything, and the research and education are half the fun!!!

Wow, great reply. Thanks. Well I definitely intend of researching the crap out of this. It's almost 1/2 the fun. As I grow in the hobby and see setups in person and understand the way they work I'll learn more.

I have a debate right now going on about sand vs aragonite. One guy says sand is the best and the other says aragonite is fine and low maintenance. But who is right? Hard to determine.