[loveforfish]

im brand new to marine aquariums, i have been around freshwater and brackish aquariums for a while now and would like to move up.. im trying to learn as much as i can so i can start my marine tank..

im only 18 so i dont have loads of money to put into my favorite hobby i just discoverd about a year ago so im trying to find the most cost effecient way to get into a marine aquarium.

so far is what i would like to do is take my 20 gallon tank which i already have a heater, hood, and filter for and make it marine.. then eventually when i get more money and knowledge i would like to invest into a tank around 50 -100 gallon set up for my marine aquarium..

whats the best advice i can get on setting up my 20 for marine.

[wozza]

When you got you tank was it new or used and since you had it have you ever treated it with anything that had copper in it, (i.e. white spot treatment etc...)

[loveforfish]

i bought the tank new.. only thing thats been in it has been my prime dechlorantor. its only a few months old too

[wozza]

then thats cool no worries there.
the only other advice is read as much as you can, there are some great sticky threads on this forum to start with, then after that maybe a good book.
This is a good un Amazon.com: The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists: Books: Robert M. Fenner

[loveforfish]

thank you..

as a begginer is there certain parts of marine that i dont need to pay attention to learning right now and certain parts i should focus on?

[wozza]

That depends, what kind of tank do you want to set up?

[Samper]

I kept a fairly nice 20 gallon tank for a few years. If you have any specific questions as to what it takes to run one this size please post them and I will help you as much as I can. I will say that the 20 gallon system is a challenge. You really have to be on top of parameters because they can get out of whack easily. Let me know what you want to keep and I will help you decide what equipment will be necessary for you to do so. The book by Robert Fenner is a great starting point for you.

[loveforfish]

thanks samper.. appreciate the help.

im just getting into the marine world so im gona start off with a pair of clowns ( in a fish only tank ).

i was told by my Local fish store that i should run a coral life protein skimmer thats rated for a 75 gallon tank on my 20 for now ( i told him i would be upgrading to a larger aquarium when i get the money ) and i can put it on my 55 gallon aquarium when i get it.. he said i needed about 1lb of live rock for ever gallon.. i have the choice of cured or uncured. and for the substrate i should have crushed coral with some live sand.

anyway im just trying to get into marine as basic as i can.. im very confident that i can handle keeping an eye on the parameters of my water as i keep a very close eye on my 2 other freshwater and brackish tanks. and im doing as much reasearch as i can. so im confident with the right help and reasearch i can become a decent marine aquarist over time.

one thing i have reasearched is hoods and lighting.. my 20 gallon has got a single flourecent 17 watt bulb, where i have read proper lightin requires a duble light hood with a mix of bulbs , flourecent whit, and blue actinic.

im already equipt with a heater, penguin 150 power filter. and a hood unless i need to have a different style..

hopefully with that information you can help me along a little better to what im trying to go for..

thank you

[Samper]

For starters if you know that you are going to upgrade but want to learn on a 20 gallon that's ok. A larger system will be more stable therefore easier in some aspects to maintain. But if you can learn on a small tank imo you will be further ahead. I would suggest to buy as much equipment as possible for your first setup that you can then transfer over to the larger one so that you aren't buying equipment again and again.
Make sure you understand the cycle process thoroughly before you add fish.
If at all possible get the fully cured LR. Don't buy the live sand in bags. It's not necessary. If you can find dry oolitic sand use that and seed it with live sand from a healthy system. This will save you money. The crushed coral is a definate no no. It's a deitritus trap and will cause you headaches down the road in the form of high nitrates and algae blooms. To be honest with you I would get some nice live rock and go with a bare bottom tank. The benefits you can receive from a sandbed are very minimal in a tank that small. Lighting is not that important for you right now since you don't plan to keep any photosynthetic invertebrates. As for the hood..most people don't even use them. My wife has to use the computer but I'll check in on you again.

[loveforfish]

thanks alot samper, great help.

yeh the guy at the fish store seemed like he knew what he was talking about. but you say to stay away from crushed coral base all together huh?

i also had the question of a fishless cycle useing uncured live rock.. he said that uncured live rock can for sure cycle the tank.

About how many lbs of live rock would you suggest per gallon?
What kind of sea salt would you reccomend?

and as far as for my other equipment. what are some brands/models that wouldint break my budget but would not be low grade equipment. protein skimmer, powerhead, and anything else i might need ( remembering ofcourse it will all be moved to a 55 gallon eventualy )

thanks

[Samper]

Yeah stay away from the CC.
You can setup a system with uncured LR but you can do so much faster with cured rock. Dieoff will be very minimal and the cycle process will also be greatly reduced. The rock will seed your sand over time and it will become alive. Another thing you can do to get a few cups of sand and water from a friends system and use that to seed yours. Either way your sandbed will become alive over time but as I said it won't function like a very large sandbed would. Still you could use one.
Some people use a very thin layer just for looks and they periodically siphon it out and replace it. I personally went BB in the display because I had a ton of flow in that system.
For LR start with 8 or so 5lb pieces and see what that looks like to you after you aquascape it. If you want more you can get more at any time but try to get cured rock.
As for equipment hob skimmers will work for that tank cpr bakpak skimmers I've heard work well and the prizms work good for the price but you may want a larger skimmer when you upgrade. Maxi jet makes great lasting pumps and if you decide to run a sump mag pumps are great.
I've always used instant ocean salt. It has always worked well for me but there are more expensive salts out there that seem to mix up with higher Ca levels than IO. I hope this helps.

[loveforfish]

i been lookin at skimmers on ebay.. which of these would be best suitable for my 20 gallon now and to move to my 50 gallon later?

eBay: New 150 Gallon JEBO Protein Skimmer Reef Aquarium (item 250089483441 end time Mar-07-07 19:45:00 PST)

eBay: Coralife Needle Wheel Skimmer 65 gal New with Pump (item 250091206796 end time Mar-12-07 11:47:35 PDT)

how does sand become live? whats BB? and what would i use a sump for. arent thouse for wet/dry filters. or is there another use i could have for it?

thanks

[Samper]

Definately the coralife would we the way to go there.
The sand will naturally become alive as bacteria and creatures from the rock begin living in the sand also.
BB means bare bottom aka no substrate
Sumps are very necessary for what I want to accomplish. They add more water volume, give you a place to store unsightly equipment etc etc. Some people use wet dry filters in their sumps but you would be better off using a refugium instead of a wet dry since they are kind of outdated technology and a ton of work to maintain properly. If you want a refugium on your 20g I would recommend a cpr hang on back refugium. I used one and it was a great addition to the setup.

[loveforfish]

aright. so that coral life isnt the most expensive but not the bottom of the line.. that will work well for my 20 and 50?

what would you suggest for a powerhead and water movement?

so if im gettin this all right.. im gona put about ten lbs live rock on the bare bottom of my tank and let it cycle. no sand no substrate. just glass bottom and let my equipment work for a while and then add a clown or some other small fish?

[melancthon]

I think Samper means eight pieces of rock of about 5 lbs each, or about 2lbs of live rock for each gallon in your system. 10lbs is about half of the minimum that would be suggested (1lb/gallon) and you'd be better off with 30 as a minimum, with 40 being an optimal amount - that way you can get both nitrification and denitrification from the rock itself.

[loveforfish]

i think the only LV at my store is fiji reef rock.. and i have read that, that is a good rock for beginers and works best in most marine aquariums?

[rayjay]

FWIW, there are lots of ways to keep a 20g tank. I have ten systems on the go and the "grandkids" tank is the smallest at 20g.
IMO it's not worth hooking up a skimmer as water changes are cheap for that size of tank. I don't even use a skimmer on my 3 40g tanks.
My 20 has been running now for about 6 years.
With a home made hood, I have 4 20W NO lamps, 2 daylight and 2 Philips actinic 03's, and can keep softies, zoa's, and I have a torch in there that has continued to grow for the 3 years it's been there.
I have a shallow substrate that I'll remove someday when I get around to it, with about 30 lbs of live rock. There are 3 small power heads for water movement, with one point up to the surface for surface agitaion to aid gas exchange.
I have a perc, a cleaner wrasse, and a canary blenny for fish and also have in there a blood red shrimp and a serpent star fish. (I don't keep snails or hermits in any of my tanks)
Until the tank matured, I did about 5 gal water changes twice a week but now I do 5 to 8 g changes every other week.

[loveforfish]

interesting.. could you explain a little bit on the lighint. like which bulbs are good for what?
and where did you get the meterial to build your own hood, was the cost differnece from buying one dramatic.

so you have 4 bulbs? are they on timers so different bulbs come on different times of day to produce different lighting?

thanks

[rayjay]

The hood is made out of wood from pieces I purchased at Home Depot.
The ballasts were purchased there also. 2 ballasts each powering two 20 watt lamps. Each ballast has a GE daylight and a Philips actinic 03 on it. One timer turns on both ballasts (all four lamps) at the same time, and comes on at 6:30 am and goes off at 9:00 pm
I don't use end caps for the lamps. Instead, I solder ballast type wire to the pins, and use silicone to seal them up afterwards.
I have drilled holes about 2 times the wire diameter to pull the wires up through from the bottom side of the hood to connect to the ballast wires on the top side of the hood, using marrettes for connecting.
By pulling these wires up, and bending them at right angles to run along the top of the hood, it also holds the lamps in place so I don't need any holder.
On my website I have a HOOD page with drawn pictures showing how I did my 90g tanks, but I made the hood for the 20, the same way as for the larger tanks.
If you are handy to build your own, or have a relative that can do it for you, the cost is but a fraction of what it would cost to buy something to do the same lighting, at least here in Canada.
MY D.I.Y. HOOD PAGE

[loveforfish]

Each ballast has a GE daylight and a Philips actinic 03 on it.

whats that?

that sound good.. good plans too. im gona try to build a hood it sounds like it will save me some money and i am the crafty type that would enjoy a project like that!

can you explain the difference between regular flourecent bulbs and the blue actinic?

how much are those bulbs, and what would be the best mixture of bulbs to use, for what reason?