sump/bio-balls

Saltie · 03-08-2008, 04:11 PM

Ok, if bio-balls are as bad as everyone says they are, what do you recommend I put put in my sump? I was planning to have a wet/dry (bio-balls), a skimmer and a small refug with some mangrove. What should go in place of the bio-balls?

agent-o2 · 03-08-2008, 08:23 PM

Live rock fully submerged.

SouthBayPhoto · 03-08-2008, 09:50 PM

I second that. I believe the LR would do WAYYYY better good in there than the bio balls...at least you have stuff eating the bad stuff and you get cool stuff to look at to boot.

Saltie · 03-08-2008, 10:11 PM

Lets talk about LR. Isnt is similar to bio-balls in some ways.... just less surface area right? It will not prevent nitrate will with? Does the LR in a sump need to have a light over it?

SouthBayPhoto · 03-08-2008, 10:54 PM

I know that most have to put a light over a refugium where they are growing things, but I don't know about just LR. Hopefully someone more experienced will chime in on that part. I plan on putting a small PC light over my sump that will have LR in it.

LR supplies nitrification and denitrification processes, so that's how it's better than bio-balls. I believe the bio-balls just do the nitrification part and that is why they tend to put a ton more nitrates in the water, which you don't really want or need. I believe LR is much more "balanced", not to mention the little critters and hitchikers that can come on/in it and add a benefit.

Again, I'm sure more experienced people here will either A) correct me if I'm wrong and/or B) provide much more beneficial information to you.

***zhenya*** · 03-09-2008, 12:58 PM

Here's some more fat to chew on...

Live Rock As A Biological Filter: Hit or Myth? by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D.. - Reefkeeping.com
How Sandbeds REALLY Work by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com
Waste Extraction, the Invertebrate Way by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

All in all, I personally am not a big fan of putting anything in the sump. Refugium is another matter but sump for me is a place for pumps, heater, etcetera....

Refugium as well requires just a bit of rock rubble for pods to make home and breed, a bot of sand for worms and other infauna to process some of the food that gets there. Mostly it is occupied by algae(like the Chaetomorpha) to consume nutrients and grow, grow, grow baby... then we trim and take out the excess nutrients with it. Simple concept of removing nutrients via biomass.

People chose to have lots of rock in their sumps (when it is large enough and won't obstract flow) because they need space for corals in displays and do not use sand beds as a part of filtration mechanism(biological). At least that is the opinion that I came about by reading all of the threads on various boards.
I don;t have any of that because I use deep sand bed where it is needed, my display tank, and rock is there as well because most of the waste is in the display and hardly anything gets into the sump( one would hope

). Whatever little gets into the refugium should be enough to keep the critters there alive, let alone keep all the infauna needed to support remote biological filter like DSB alive.

SouthBayPhoto · 03-09-2008, 02:12 PM

Very interesting, Gene. Because I'm planning on running a 3" DSB in my 90 display and was going to put more LR in my 30g sump that I have underneath...however, it seems like it might be better off that I just run the DSB & LR in my display and sort of leave the sump empty.

Would there be a benefit to putting a little sand and LR into my sump and putting some chaeto in there? I never thought about putting chaeto in, but by reading your comment, it seems like that would be beneficial to run with. Would it work in a sump where the return line is coming in?

***zhenya*** · 03-09-2008, 03:01 PM

Mat,

Chaeto benefits from good lighting and brisk flow, if it tumbles that is all the flow you'll need for it.
As far as little sand is concern, I can understand this concept if it's in the refugium but just a sump I don't see how it benefits anything. I like to syphon my sump dry when I do water change (clean and wipe it down) to relieve it of any detritus that made it;s way down there. My sump is small by comparason, but I do have refugium built in so that stays wet all the time and that is where chaeto lives. I have a return from chiller going directly into the refugium and that flow tumbles and spins chaeto.

Anyway, I remove the algae about a month ago because I saw some of it make its way into the tank and growing in the rockwork. I can;t get to it without tearing everything appart.

So off it went from the fuge...

For guys like you and I, that do not have a basement, it is not that easy to have all of the bells and wistles in place. The chillers, large fuge's and large pumps for flow. Everything is cramped under the tank, around the tank and on top of the tank. Luckily for me my tank is in the office and not many people venture in there without me chasing them out.

SouthBayPhoto · 03-09-2008, 03:20 PM

I hear you there...I never thought I'd wish for a basement so much as I do now! LOL

Well, maybe I'll do that instead...I'll skip the sand in the sump and put in some live rock (small pieces, not huge) and go to the LFS and see if they have some chaeto for sale. I've never looked for it before, so I don't even know if they carry it. Hell, I don't even know what the stuff looks like, so I could have seen it and never knew it!

LOL Or I could ask some of the local reefers where they got theirs from.

Wait...that last statement didn't sound too good, did it?

DJ63 · 03-19-2008, 02:24 PM

Can someone post pics of a set up with out the bio-balls? I'm very interested in this and want to see what modifications I would have to do to the current equipment I have now.

***zhenya*** · 03-19-2008, 04:15 PM

Hi DJ63,

Quote:

Can someone post pics of a set up with out the bio-balls? I'm very interested in this and want to see what modifications I would have to do to the current equipment I have now.

Do you need to see image of the wet/dry filter without the bio-balls, or do you want to see a picture of the functioning sump that does not utilise them?

DJ63 · 03-19-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhenya

Hi DJ63,

Do you need to see image of the wet/dry filter without the bio-balls, or do you want to see a picture of the functioning sump that does not utilise them?

how a bout a picture of both. I would like to see what I'm up against if I convert and to see exactly what my set up should look like if I do convert

Saltie · 03-19-2008, 11:33 PM

I would like some photos as well. I am trying to put togeter a 125 gallon tank but dont want a bunch of live rock in the desplay, I want more of an open look to display the fish.

How do I set up a filter if i dont have a lot of LR in the main tank and without boi balls (or a lot of room) in the sump?

Saltie · 03-26-2008, 10:38 AM

Anyone have filteration photos to share? see comments above.

crasico · 03-26-2008, 04:52 PM

I would be interested in seeing some images as well. I am trying to figure out how to rearrange and better manage a sump under my 60g.

Charles

smpolyp · 03-28-2008, 12:16 AM

Reasons for no bio balls. #1 is Oxygen.. Making an excess of bacteria that thrives on oxygen will deprive the system of oxygen. #2 It will take food away from the natural balance that you what to make. #3 rapid conversion of a nitrofying system that leaves you with an excess of nirate. I'm sure the list could go on.
Zheyna I agree with the clean sump. This is the spot for excess detritus to be removed. We are trying to reproduce the biggest ecosystem in the world in a little glass box. (How obsurd)

King Triton · 04-18-2008, 08:00 PM

I have been reading these posts and can see the point of live rock altouugh if live rock isnt kept sumurged(fully wet)wont it die and become base?what needs to be done to put it in the sump should I remove bottom plate that hold my bio balls up and put rock there instead?Those of you who said a empty sump is best I am assumeing you meen to still use a mech media(floss,ativated coal,ect)sterlizer,skimmer,heater?I have been running this tank awhile as fish and coarls but want more coarls and found this web site and man have things changed from when I started marine 10 yrs ago I did alot of reading then and looks like I need to start reading again any oldtimers out there are the new methods better?When I started Bio balls where manditory in a wet dry system.I am willing to change if it may help but I want to know whrer to put LR?Can I leave the bio balls and just add rock to sump area?The reason I am confused is I thought the water slowly trickleing across the bacteria surfaces on the bio balls helped remove nitrates?if I sumurge rock It is working like LR in tank if thats the case why waste it in the sump?Help please so I understand?Maybe I should just stick to what I know but I cant get my nitrates under 10 ppm and I want zero.

weez1959 · 04-20-2008, 07:52 AM

Here's my messy little sump...