GPH, Best submersible pump, Spraybar & SeaSwirl

[scubadude]

I have a 34" spraybar spanned across the top of my 90gal which is feed by a RIO2500 I have 4' of head, I figure im doing about 720GPH in the tank maybe a tad more....this at the present time is ALL that I have for current in the tank .....my corals do seem fairly happy and Im quite satisfied w/the spraybar...However Im starting to get more SPS and I think I should increase the flow rate.....I want to keep the spraybar becuz it does a great job at dispersing the current through out the tank....I would like to add a 1/2" Seaswirl in addition to the spraybar and I want to feed both of these with one pump....my questions are:

1. Can I do this? and how? I was thinking a 2 way splitter at the output of the pump and how much would this decrease my flow rate?...or should I try to make the seaswirl connect to the end of the spraybar?

2. What size pump and brand name should I use....I really want to go with submersiblle and am a bit limited to space in my Refugium for the return pump (12"x4.5"x15"). I was thinking maybe a Mag12? Is there a better quality return submersible pump than Mag pumps?

3. I have a durso Overflow that I built and had tank drilled...the bulkhead is 1" and the pipe is 1.25" What is the Max I can push through this overflow?

Thanx

[golfish]

Dude,
I would go with a little bigger pump if your moving up to SPS. I'm doing 3000+ gph on my 150. The SPS love it......How about a Mag 18 or 24 and 3/4" Sea Swirl. You put the Y fitting on the end of the SS and you'll love it.......

Or you could spend the $$ now and save on electricity and get a Amp Master 3000.....this pump will use less power then the Mags. Why buy a pump that your going to have to upgrade in a few months

Mark

[scubadude]

Originally posted by golfish
Dude,
I would go with a little bigger pump if your moving up to SPS. I'm doing 3000+ gph on my 150. The SPS love it......How about a Mag 18 or 24 and 3/4" Sea Swirl. You put the Y fitting on the end of the SS and you'll love it.......

Or you could spend the $$ now and save on electricity and get a Amp Master 3000.....this pump will use less power then the Mags. Why buy a pump that your going to have to upgrade in a few months

Mark

Yeah I thought I would get responses saying to go for more current....Ok I will...I think anyway....is the ampmaster submersible? how big is it? maybe I should just do away with the spray bar and get a couple of 1" Sea swirls? Im just worried about my LPS like my Frogspawn and Hammer....I dont want to BLAST them away!...just dont want to over do the current issue...I have had actually 6-7 SPS species for over 4 mos now and they are growing very well!! and I just hate to ruin a good thing....Im afraid of putting TOO much current in my tank....Im trying to stay away from the 3/4" SS's cuz I have heard they have had problems.....Im gonna go do some research on this Amp Master 3000

[scubadude]

Hmmmm got to reading articles and threads about oscillating currents and I read a thread in Dr. Shimeks forum

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...threadid=21203

He is saying that Oscillating flow and high current is a recipe for hair algae....Im trying an experiment...I have had a Powersweep in the tank since this morning....its only another 190 GPH (I think) and my hammer has closed a little bit....However I have noticed the acro's and SPS polyps have extended out a bit farther.....the Hammer is quite a good distance away from the powersweep outlet....im hoping it just needs to get adjusted to the new additional current? Im still stumped on how I should do this though....I do think the Ampmaster will be pushing too much through my 90gal though....My LPS are a very important part of my tank and I dont want to get rid of them (frog, and hammer) but i also want to provide more current for my SPS...they obviously want it! I cant really put the hammer or frog anywhere else w/out them getting just as much current either

[lil Anemone]

I agree on doing more current, like a pair of Mag12's or 18's but STAY AWAY from the ampmaster. Its garbage, and isnt pressure rated at all, infact its true output if restricted(which will be with seaswirls,even 2 of them) will be nowhere near what a pair of Mag 12's will put out, the Ampmaster was designed to be used with multiple 1" piping, but with 2 1inch or 3/4 inch tubes of any type of length, you will be lucky to even get close to 1000gph. This is a pump design for circulation through large diameter, multiple pipelines, not a single or pair of 3/4 inch sea swirls, its output will not be good at all.

[Steve]

What you could do is point a couple of powerheads right at or around the area of the SPS and place the powerheads on a wavemaker so the current is turned on and off at certain intervals.

[golfish]

Dude,
The Amp Master is not a submersible pump and will take up some room in your stand. One of the great things about this pump is it can be throttled down to almost nothing. So you won't have to worry about it being too much pump. I use it to drive two 1" SS and I have to throttle it down some. Another thing to think about is one Mag 12 will use more power then the AM3000.....



Mark

[Ironreef]

ampmaster with 1_1" tube =1200gph@4' a y with 1" =1800@4'. 1800@4' would put out more than 2 mag1200 ime. They are rated @1132@4" both would be 2264 but its not pressure pump either and I belive the rating isn't that accurate. They are good pumps and but aren't strong. They maybe good for what you want but dolphin pumps made by dolphin are good strong pumps. Current may help the hair grow by spreading it but its needed (current) and the hair maybe comming from other sources also JMO

[lil Anemone]

Mag 12's are "magnetic drive" pumps and are pressure rated. The Ampmaster from dolphin is a "centrifigal force" pump and is not pressure rated, and is not recommended for small OD hose and piping. A Mag 12 uses the same electricity basically as an ampmaster, this is correct, but its for a whole different application. Your best choice for this would be to stay with the Mag drive regardless, this along with the fact that Dolphin has a lot of products that are being "discontinued" due to reliability problems, they are not the best pumps to be looking at either.

[scubadude]

Ok....I have decided to go w/ two 1/2" SS's but I want to buy ONE mag drive pump to supply to both of them....so my question is using a "T" or "Y" right at the pump output and 2 outlets off the pump (one for each of the SS's each of them with 4' of flex line to the SS's that would be a total of 8' Head correct? If I did it this way I wouldnt have to put elbows (less restriction) and Im trying to keep away from hardplumbing but if its 8' of head and two SS's each of them being the 1/2" models that can handle 550GPH which Mag drive should I use? the 12 or the 18? I dont know how much pressure I will be loosing with the supposedly 8' of head.

[lil Anemone]

After doing the calculations with the "Y" or "T" with a total of 8'ft of head go with the Mag 18, it only uses 142 watts of electricity(1.5amps)and you always want to have a bit more "extra" capacity in case of possible upgrades etc. The Mag 12 itself wont be able to fully maximise the 2 sea swirls at that amount of "ftxhead pressure", but the 18 would be a great match. Whenever in doubt always go the next size up, you can always reduce water flow from a pump, but you can never add more to it that what its physically capable of.

[Ironreef]

Not all magnetic drive pumps are pressure rated. look at Iwaski they have both. the out put is different. Mag pumps aren't pressure rated ask danner or any vendor that sells them. Almost all external pumps produce more gph than any sump pump with the gph close. Like Mak4 is 1190@ 4' Mag 2400 still won't produce the same pressue in a skimmer like a mak4. I have both and seen this. FWIW the mag pumps are good insump pumps but when buying2 mag12 it bring the cost close to a dolphin ampmaster. Which is alot stronger. You lose when going smaller than 1 1/2 but since you are doing a y it will blow 2 mag12. When using it in a spraybar and seaswirl you don't need a pressure rated pump anyway. The mag maybe what you want if you want insump but go with a mag24 if you want one pump. mag 18= 850gph @8' Not very much?? If you want 2 seaswirls. The mag24 would be a better choice. I'm just making my point when you see Dolphin pumps in action the power or water movement is alot. So when one pump application is wanted ampmaster is the best choice. Also when going mag18 i belive it ups the plumbing to 1 1/4 which would also make the ampmaster produce more gph. But you want insump I belive mag24 would be the better option. Dolphin sst pumps they sold under there name but didn't make them. Aqua sea pumps been out for along time and are pretty reliable. They also make pressure rated pumps the aquasea they aren't magnetic. so my point is just cuz is magnetic doesn't mean its pressure rated and just cuz it's not magnetic doesn't mean its can't be pressure rated.

[lil Anemone]

Ironreef: Sorry, but you're wrong on this one, ALL mag drives are pressure rated pumps. In fact I own at least 1 of each(except Mag 3), and after pulling out the spec sheet for a Mag 12, here is the following:

0 ft. 1200gph
1 ft. 1200gph
2 ft. 1170gph
3 ft. 1150gph
4 ft. 1130gph
5 ft. 1110gph

at 6 feet head pressure it drops off to 950gph and declines to 16 ft.

I have also an Iwalki 30 and 40rlt, the 30 rlt is pressure rated too and is good for up to about 16 feet, the 40rlt is good up to about 22feet, so compared to a pure pressure rated pump the mags arent as strong, but for the first 6 feet they are uparalelled for performance and are great pumps running high pressure skimmers like Aerofoamers and such. A Mag 2400 still uses less than 2 amps of power(178 watts)is rated up to 26 feet and puts out incredible pressure for the first 14 feet, and this pump is only about $119 dollars at a few MO places. the Mag 18 can be had for $99, and the Mag 12 I have seen as low as $79, and all of these pumps are extremely reliable, the dolphin ampmaster is about $270 dollars, and for that money there are alot better pumps on the market depending on application, but the ampmaster is designed for low flow,short pumping distances, even dolphin tech support will tell you that, and they dont recommend them for small diameter piping unless your going to split it off to multiple(greater than 4 splits of 3/4 inch tubing)pipes and of very short length, the ampmaster is all horsepower with no torque so to speak, the mag has a very nice balance of horsepower/torque ratio, along with being very energy efficient and versatile and reliable as hell. Best bang for the buck pump on the market.Also FWIW, the Mag 18's now produce about 1200 gph at 8 ft. and in this persons case with a split and total tube length of 5 ft or less(both tubings will be less than 4 ft each, and with a split it does not double its headpressure but only adds about a foot for a total of 5 feet, 6 the most)which will give him a rating closer to 1500gph more likely so he will be still using a gate valve in all reality.

[scubadude]

Ok let me clarify here guys....I currently have a RIO 2500 on my tank with the 34" spraybar which is about 4' of head...which I believe that is around 720 GPH....Im gonna take out the rio and throw on a Mag7 which should be fairly close to the same pressure....maybe a bit less....then ontop of that Im also gonna install a mag 18 that will run both the 1/2" SS's (this way I have 2 circuits of flow....if one fails the other is a backup ) I Think im gonna like it this way .......I hope anyway.....the only problem I might have is that I hope I have enough room in my refugium (sump return pump section) to put both of the mag pumps in there ;; If I dont have enough room then Im looking at probably running a closed loop....which that will probably cause more restricttions and longer Head But I was thinking about something else other than the sea swirls now.....geez this would be REAL CHEAP compared to a Sea Swirl.....check this out guys



SCROLL DOWN THE PAGE TO
The AutoRotator Surge Device http://home.att.net/~Ah64av8tor/DYI.htm

This guy built a seaswirl prototype(out of a $5 sprinkler head and a couple of elbows)

Im gonna make a thread in the DIY Forum too

[golfish]

Scubadude,
What ever you do don't use a Mag 7, too many probelms with them. When the power is cut to mine it has to be removed from the water and thrown around the room to get started again. I think Michael has the same probem with his.

If you don't plan to upgrade to a bigger tank then the 1/2" SS's would be fine with the larger Mag pump. If it were me I would go with the 3/4" SS's and stick with the Amp Master 3000....

Mark

[scubadude]

I Have had 2 mag7's running for about 6 months no probs (knock on wood) this is the first time I have heard of them causing problems....I have had my power cut off and on before and they still are running fine....The spray bar disperses the flow quite well throughout the tank....If i just went with the 2 SS's then I would have 1100 GPH which isnt that much more than the spraybar alone.....Im getting alot of SPS in the tank and the way my tank is setup now (w/the spraybar) there is no dead spots in the bottom area, cuz I have holes pointing down on the spraybar.....so I really want to keep the spray bar....I just want to add more current and at the same time make it oscillating....I have read a few probs about the Ampmaster3000 but thats not the main reason I dont want to go with it....the main reason is that I dont have any room for an external pump....unless i run it like a closed loop not connected to the sump and if I did it that way then I wouldnt have the 2 circuits thus if one pump goes out it would increase my chances of flooding.....there are pros and cons to both sides....the one thing about running 2 circuits through the sump that I DONT like is that it might increase my flow through my refugium.....I dont know if this would affect it that much though.....cuz I do have baffles that it goes through to slow down b4 it gets to the refugium.

[scubadude]

Looks like im gonna hafta put the 2 SS's/OR the Spraybar and whatever pump I use on a Closed Loop....cuz I dont think my Durso Overflow will capacitate the flow I want to stuff through it....I have a 7/8" or 1" bulkhead (cant remember) with 1.25" standpipe......can anyone tell me the most GPH I can push through this? I was hoping to push 1800 GPH? I dont think it will happen though.

[golfish]

I run my AM3000 on a closed loop because my 40 gal sump with 5 baffles couldn't take care of the tiny bubbles. Putting 2300 gph through it was just too much. I did get rid of the bubbles using a micro bag but it needed to be cleaned every other day. I like to walk away from my tank for a week of two and not worry....

I have talked to many people who have the same problem with their mag7 that I do. It seems that some do and some don't. For a while there I didn't know anybody who had one that worked proper...

Rather you use a Mag or AM3000 or any other pump I would suggest you do it on a closed loop, it just works so well with Sea Swirls....

Mark

[scubadude]

Originally posted by golfish
I run my AM3000 on a closed loop because .........

Mark

Great info mark! ALL OF IT!! Im still a bit confused...I understand everything, its just that there are soooo many variables at play here! Do you have any pics of your 150 gal setup? like the closed loop pics...I would like to know how you have it setup....particularly where your intake is ( in the tank or in the Overflow chamber in the tank? ) and how deep you have it.....dont you count your intake tubes (im guessing a U tube? ) as an increase in head distance.... correct? Believe me im not throwing the Ampmaster pump idea out the window....its still a strong possibility....just trying to focus on all the variables and what will work the best for my configuration. FWIW im pretty convinced on doing the SS's in a closed loop....cuz the return pump seems just perfect for my sump. Im just pretty stuck on using a submersible pump for that 700 GPH flow through my refugium....and it needs to be submersible...and the only two that I know of that fit the criteria are a Mag7 or a Rio 2500 and you say there is probs with the Mag7....well I have been running the Rio2500 for over 8 mos. now....Im getting a little nervous with this being my only return pump...if you catch my drift! (way too many RIO horror stories...and I think mine has just about reached its life limit!)

[golfish]

Scubadude,
LOL, you don't need to tell me about confused I spent 6 months deciding how to set up my 150 and I still had to redo just about everything, and this was my 2nd reef and 8th saltwater tank. I wish I could post some pics of my closed loop but I just can't get the camera in a good position to get a good shot. HTH's....I use 1.5" pvc to supply the AM3000 The PVC runs from about a foot down in the tank up over the top and down the back of the tank right into the pump. From the pump I go about half way up with 1.5" pvc then T off to 1" pvc, the 1" runs right up to the Sea Swirls.

with a closed loop you don't want to draw water from an overflow because it will suck air causing bubbles. I have the 1.5" PVC setup kind of like a U-Tube in the back corner of my tank next to one of the overflows. I think the best way to do it is to have a bulkhead in the back of the tank at least 6" below water surface. Unless your tank is empty this might be a little hard to do;)

Have you ever used a canister filter like a magnum? Just inset the pump where the canister filter is and your set with a closed loop, You can use hard or soft plumbing....

I'm not trying to sell you on the AM3000 because it might not be the best for you. Its a great pump and works perfict with my setup but might not be the best for you at this time. I just like to think ahead

Why don't you try one of your Mag 7's on a closed loop with a SS and see how you like it. It should only take you a few minutes to setup..



I ran a Rio 2100 for 5+ years as a sump return, a 3100 on my RD2 skimmer and never had a problem. I thought people were crazy talking bad about a pump (Rio) that had given me years of worry free running....Its a good thing my 150 was setup and ready for the tank swap when my rio took a dump. it took a month for the smell to go away.

Mark