Opinion needed...

[wldfowlr]

Need some expert advice...I have an opportunity to buy this set up...it is a 90gal tank with a "slow" leak...I have not seen it in person, but have seen pics...appears to be atleast a couple of years old...The guy is willing to sale it all or part...

I am wanting to make an offer, but have no idea what used equipment is worth...I have already tried to get him to tell me what he would take for the tank,rock,sand, and skimmer, but he wants me to go first...of course

Anyone have an opinion?


Tank, with overflow paid 800.00
300lbs (approx) of Live Rock most Fiji Paid 4.00/lb
60lbs (approx) Live Sand
55 Gallon Plastic Drum with screw top
Tunze 230.04A Skimmer Paid 300.00
Ice Cap Ballast 660 Ballast paid 200.00
4 VHO lights with endcaps and 4 bulb harness, in canopy
2 Little fishes Phosban Reactor 150 paid 50.00
Blue line 30 Aqua Pump paid 150.00
IN Cabinet Sump, with dividers (custom) paid 200.00 Unit (Maxxima)
15 gallon clear drum for RO water
Pinpoint PH Monitor Paid 100.00
Tunze Glass Magnet
Half Bucket of Tropic Marine Salt
Half Bucket of HydroCarbon
2 Large jugs of B Ionic Parts A and B
Algae Free Hammerhead Floating Glass Magnet
3 empty 5 gallon buckets
3 feet claw (grabber)
Surge Protectors
Digital Thermometer/ Humidity paid 30.00
Test Kits (Sailfert Nitrate, Calcium, Phosphate, Alkalinity)
Aqaurium Heater
Couple of Rio Powerheads

[tholleyh46]

I'd be real interested in and wanting to find out much more about the "slow leak" and what exactly that means. Where is it leaking from? Is it glass or acrylic? In my opinion acrylic is easily fixed, as I'm not that comfortable working with glass - but then acrylic is easily scratched so each has its own strong points. But if I had a leaking glass tank less than 250 Gallongs or so I'd probably toss it or find a buddy with a snake or other reptile possibly that was willing to trade, but that's just my opinion. 300#s sound like a lot of rock for a 90 gallon tank though.

All of that stuff adds up though, can get quite expensive. Finding used equipment can really cushion the upfront cost of getting started in this hobby.

[wldfowlr]

I agree with you about the rock...as far as the leak, I have "re-built" my current set-up once (55) before, so, as long as the glass is not cracked/chipped, I feel I could fix it...I really only want the tank,rock,sand,skimmer,sump,and pump/powerheads...I am thinking of offering $300 bucks for it, and seeing what he says...

I have no current plans for a reef, as I simply do not have the knowledge yet...My current set up is FO...

I have learned so much by "lurking" here...I am recently disabled, and the only thing I have to do these days is my aquarium...The help I have gotten here by just reading all the past posts' is amazing...

Thanks for the reply...

[Ninong]

I wouldn't be interested in buying a glass tank with a "slow leak" but if you feel competent to take it apart and put it back together again, then that's a different story. That's a lot of work.

Used equipment might bring 50% of it's purchase price if it is in close to new condition. Most people are lucky to get ~30% of the purchase price for equipment that is no older than two or three years.

The live rock could be worth $2.50 a pound if it looks nice. That's the most valuable item on the list.

I probably wouldn't pay anything for the live sand because you may not be able to reuse it. And 60 lbs in a 90-gal tank is a very shallow sand bed.

Even if I knew how to fix a leaky glass tank myself -- which I don't -- I wouldn't pay more than $100 for that tank, tops.

The skimmer and other equipment is worth between 30-50% of the purchase price depending on condition.

What happened to the livestock? Did he already sell it?

Another thing to worry about when you buy a used tank, especially a glass tank, is whether the guy ever used any copper-based medication. If he did, the tank would have to be VERY well cleaned before it could be used as a reef tank (with any inverts at all) and the live rock would have to be thrown away. It could be used in a fish-only tank but NOT in a tank with any invertebrates. There are several horror stories on this board posted by people who unknowingly purchased a glass tank from someone who previously used copper (very possible with tanks that were previously freshy tanks). Such a tank, and the live rock, would be okay for use as a fish-only setup but NOT for use as a reef tank.

Good luck!



P.S. --

[wldfowlr]

Thank you very much....that brings me to my next question...what is the best way to clean that tank, or all of it for that matter, to be safe....Right now, and for the near future, I plan to just put my Volitan and a little live rock in it....I have 2 Florida Anemones also....Would they be ok in this set-up? I can't be certain he would tell me the truth about the copper.

I am ok with re-building the tank...I had to re-do my other tank after katrina, and all is well...My skill level in setting up the sump,etc is far from ok though....I have never done that, but there is def. enough info posted here to help me....

Thanks again for such a detailed reply.

[Ninong]

I have to start off by saying that I personally would not even consider buying a glass tank or any equipment that had been used with copper if I ever hoped to house any inverts (snails, polychaete worms, corals, anemones, clams, etc.) in it.

Copper is adsorbed by glass and the bond is quite strong. It can be released over time with fluctuations in the pH of the tankwater. Copper levels as low as two or three ppb (parts per billion) can be harmful to certain snails; levels as low as 10-15 ppb can be fatal to many inverts.

One expert in the field recommends a very dangerous and labor-intensive process that includes acid baths and multiple rinses. I wouldn't even think of doing that. Others say that merely washing the tank really well with water that contains vinegar, then rinsing well, then washing well with water than contains bleach, then rinsing very, very well will do the trick. If copper was used, a lot depends on how much and how long ago. If the tank had been set up for several months or more since the last copper usage, then most -- if not all -- of the copper may have been released.

Everyone agrees that live rock and aragonite, or any calcareous sand, must be discarded if it has been exposed to copper and if you plan on keeping inverts. There is no way to clean the live rock or the sand. It's toast forever as far as using it in a reef tank goes.

As you can see, there is a big risk in buying used equipment unless you know that it has never been used with copper meds. For example, if you have seen the person posting pics of their reef aquarium on one of the boards then you can feel assured that copper was never used in the tank. The exception to this is when you read on a board that so-and-so just crashed their reef tank by unknowingly using brass fittings, or some such quite common newbie mistake. There have been several threads about that mistake on the boards. And, in at least a couple of cases, I remember seeing that tank offered for sale online. Both cases that I remember were on another board.

Buying a used tank can be even more risky than buying a used car.

[wldfowlr]

Can you expand on the brass fittings?

I have a Brass saddle valve on my main connection for my RO/DI unit...Is that a problem?

Just so I know the rules, do I need to start a new thread for this question?

[Ninong]

Can you expand on the brass fittings?

Yes, I could, but I would rather that you read these threads so that you will have a better appreciation of what can happen if you use brass fittings: here and here.

Those two threads describe what happens when you use brass fittings. After you finish reading those two threads, I would like you to read this thread to learn what can happen when you purchase a used glass tank that was previously used with copper medications.

I have a Brass saddle valve on my main connection for my RO/DI unit...Is that a problem?

I don't think so because it's tiny and because the water will go through the R.O. membrane and the D.I. filter after it passes through the little saddle valve.

Just so I know the rules, do I need to start a new thread for this question?

You can post whatever you like in this thead. We really don't follow any set rules at all.



P.S. -- You seriously need to read all three of those threads. Learning from other people's mistakes is a lot cheaper than learning from your own, especially in this hobby.

[wldfowlr]

Good read...thank you...so, the copper pipes in my house can leach copper into my water supply?...or did I read something into that I should'nt have?

[Ninong]

...so, the copper pipes in my house can leach copper into my water supply?...

Potentially, yes. However, unless it's a brand new house with copper pipes, probably not. The pipes get coated over the years.

One of the reasons everyone recommends using R.O./D.I. water instead of tapwater is because we can never be sure what's in the tapwater. The federal government's rules for allowable copper -- and other heavy metals -- in the water supply are based on levels that would be detrimental to the health of humans. We, along with fish and other vertebrates, can tolerate much, much higher levels of copper than can many of the invertebrates, especially snails and polychaetes.

By federal law, your water supply company (local water district, etc.) must publish a biannual report on water quality that includes a chemical analysis of the elements that are required to be monitored for human health. Copper concentration is included in that report. You can request a copy from your local water supplier. However, this report can be meaningless because it only reports on test results taken at a given moment in time. Many local water districts will occasionally (perhaps every six months to a year) add something to the water supply in the middle of the night to clean out their pipes. They may or may not give advance warning because in most cases the amount of the something that they add, as well as its chemical nature, does not pose a threat to human health. Of course, it could very well pose a danger to invertebrates.

It's always a got idea to take a T.D.S. (total dissolved solids) measurement of your tapwater from the faucet to see what you're dealing with before it goes into your R.O./D.I. equipment. It's also a good idea to know if your water district uses chlorine or chloramine as a disinfectant. Calling the water district to ask this question is not a good way to get a reliable answer unless you ask to speak to an engineer. I asked that exact question and was told by the lady who answered the phone, "we use chlorine." I discovered later in a conversation with their engineer that they use chloramine. He explained the previous misinformation by saying, "the ladies in the office don't know the difference between chlorine and chloramine." I ended up with him on the phone when I called back later for a copy of their federally mandated water quality report. He was very helpful and sent it to me via email.

My water supply measures about 175 TDS from the tap. In some areas of the country, this number can be 750. I didn't measure it when I lived in San Francisco, but I suspect that it is extremely low there. Their tapwater comes from Sierra Nevada snowmelt. The water in San Francisco is much, much better than the water 50 miles or so to the east.

Your R.O./D.I. equipment is removing whatever you have in your tapwater, but it's still a good idea to know approximately what's in your tapwater supply to begin with.

[wldfowlr]

I am on a water well...After Katrina, I had to have it tested...test showed no metals at all...strange I thought

My TDS meter shows 448 at the source...I am getting 000 TDS on my DI output....

Thanks again for your help...It will be some time before I try a reef...I am simply not experienced enough yet...I do want to go ahead and get a bigger tank now though, while my Lion is still small, and I am learning.

[Ninong]

You are fine as long as you are using an R.O./D.I. filtration system. As I said previously, I would personally shy away from glass tanks with "slow leaks." And if I did purchase a used glass tank (one without any leaks), I would be sure to clean it with water containing vinegar and water containing bleach -- separately, with lots of rinsing in between and following.

Since you already have a Volitan, I assume you already know that any lionfish is a threat to eat almost any other fish in the aquarium that is small enough to fit into its rather large mouth. This fish is fine in a species tank or with other aggressive fish its same size or larger.

I hope you don't mind my asking, but what are you feeding your lionfish? I'm just trying to make sure you aren't feeding it something bad for it based on poor advice from your LFS.

[Ninong]

You may find this thread on another board interesting. That guy started out about a year ago with a 45-gal tank that was given to him. He quickly upgraded to a 90-gal tank. Notice the beautiful stand and canopy that he built himself for the ninety.

His initial tank was not a predator tank like yours, but he did start out with no intention of keeping corals, just fish.

[wldfowlr]

I don't mind....When I got him home, I kept him in a small quaritine tank for three weeks....I live on the coast, so I got a bunch of saltwater "minnows" and started feeding him them...every other day I would slip him a silverside during his frenzy...he now eats silversides and krill about twice a week, sometimes three....

I am aware of his eating habits as far as his mouth goes...this setup was totally for him...and maybe a siutable friend later...I would like to keep some inverts, but I would need advice on that when ready....

would hermits not be safe?....he would eat shell and all?

[Ninong]

I don't know if a Volitan would bother hermits or not but certainly most of the other fish commonly kept in a predator tank would.

The main reason I asked about your feeding habits is because so many LFS sell "feeder guppies" or "feeder goldfish" for lionfish and that's a very bad idea. If someone wants to feed live fish to a lionfish, it must be a saltwater species. Freshwater feeder fish cause fat deposits to accumulate in their livers, resulting in premature death.

[wldfowlr]

well quite honestly, I learned that here while lurking doing research before I bought that fish...that is where I came up with the idea to get the saltwater minnows caught here locally for bait, and just wien him off....

I tried to get the guy at the LFS to feed him and he "refused", but I bought him anyway, because I felt confident I could get him to eat, per the guidance here...I had to have this particular fish because he was SO black and white....awesome looking fish...he lost most of that color though when I got him home...I am guessing due to stress...but it is coming back slowly...

I would have slid right into wal-mart after .15c feeders if I had not researched the fish here and a few other places....I came back here to post my questions because of posters like you and a few others who seemed to give consistant and eager advice.

[wldfowlr]

By the way, the guy has not returned my emails on the tank, so I am off to the races once again...

Thanks for the help there.

[Ninong]

I tried to get the guy at the LFS to feed him and he "refused", but I bought him anyway, because I felt confident I could get him to eat, per the guidance here...

Dr. Frank Marini has written articles on lionfish husbandry. I believe he posted links in this thread.

Unless the guy at the LFS who "refused" to feed the lionfish was the owner, you could, and probably should, have gone over his head right then and there. There is no need to accept that sort of lack of service from an LFS employee.

They are trained to tell the customers that they aren't "allowed" to feed the fish, or that "all of the fish were fed this morning." My favorite line from an LFS employee is that "none of our fish will get larger than four inches." I overheard an LFS employee giving that response to a young woman who asked if a certain fish that she was admiring might get too large for her tank. That could have been a truthful statement only if the employee knew that all of their fish were caught using cyanide.

In any case, the next time you are seriously interested in a certain fish, you should talk to the owner (or store manager) and say, "I am prepared to purchase this fish right now but only if I can see him eating." I once admired a gorgeous 3" copperbanded butterflyfish (Chelmon rostratus) and was told by the LFS employee that she couldn't feed it for me because "all of the fish were already fed this morning." I spoke to the owner who complied with my request. He was unsuccessful in getting the fish to eat. All of the other fish in the tank ate the thawed frozen mysid shrimp but the copperbanded butterflyfish -- the only one in that tank -- refused to eat. It mouthed one or two of the shrimp and then spit them out.

The owner then tried to tell me that they usually feed their fish in that tank live brine shrimp. To which I replied, "you don't carry brine shrimp eggs and I have been coming here for years and I have never witnessed any of your employees feeding live food of any kind." He tried to pretend that they used to feed live brine shrimp but they recently switched to frozen mysid shrimp because they were more nutritious. The conversation was civil and I cracked up laughing at the guy's attempts to get out of his situation. I told him I intended to stop by again in another week or so to see if that fish was eating yet, assuming it was still there.

I stopped by twice over the next 10 days and both times the owner tried to get the Chelmon to eat and both times he was unsuccessful. When I stopped by again about a week later, the fish was gone. It either died or someone else purchased it.

There are reasons why this species will refuse to eat dead food and reasons why it will not recognize food from the water column as food. It doesn't feed from the water column in nature. There is a way to train them to eat commercial food in captivity but it is much safer to simply find one that is already feeding at the LFS before you buy it. If you do have a problem with one that refuses to eat, you can always place a Manila clam on the sand bed and let it feed on that so that it won't starve. It will also feed on whatever microcrustaceans and polychaetes it finds on your live rock and your sand bed. Sooner or later it will recognize the stuff floating down from the surface as food and learn how to eat from the water column in addition to the substrate.

[wldfowlr]

I did read that article on care and feeding before I bought this fish...

and this guy was the owner...Since this is the only fish I expect to have in this tank, I decided to get him since all my attention is devoted to him anyway...

I guess having access to saltwater fish helped me, but he seems to be doing well now...

[Ninong]

and this guy was the owner...

What city was that? Maybe I've been there. Send it to me via PM if you don't care to post it on the board.