Question About Protein Skimming

[monodon]

Hi, new to this site, found it while searching for salt-water forums and this one seemed to be the best one!

First, I should explain briefly some background for my question(s). I'm preparing for raising some salt-water shrimp, indoors and on a very small scale. I expect a lot of overlapping between the world of salt-water aquariums to happen, and a lot of information I need isn't covered by aquaculture, since I'm only working with a couple square meters for a personal project.

One of the main questions I'm having right now is concerning the protein skimmer and the larval stages of the shrimp. The larval stages, especially at first, will be really tiny, and they'll be feeding on phytoplankton and the nauplii of brine shrimp. What is the best way to make sure these things won't get sucked into the protein skimmer, while still keeping the water as clean and as close to oceanic quality as possible? I'm sure I can find the answer by researching more into commercial hatchery procedures, because they replace a lot of the water every day, but thought to ask here in the meantime.

Also, I'm trying to determine how powerful/big of a protein skimmer I'll need for the grow-out process. Not going to be much information specific to salt-water shrimp on this obviously, but I thought I'd ask what some of the fish species in the fish-only salt-water tanks would have some of the biggest biological loads, to help develop a frame of reference, since clearly shrimp are going to have a big one, especially since I'll be wanting to stock as many as I can in the same space.

Any thoughts on all of this would be excellent. Feel free to ask any questions to help with this, as I had to be rushed in making this and am sure I missed something. I'm sure I'll have more questions too, especially as I start to find out more specifics about building the tanks.

[Ninong]

Hi monodon,




Yes, you're right, you can find specific information about home breeding of some species of ornamental shrimp (especially Lysmata spp.) online. However, I don't recall the exact equipment used. Exactly which species do you intend breeding?

I googled "Lysmata breeding" and got lots of hits. Here are a couple of links for you: here and here.

[monodon]

Thanks for the welcome! I was just reading a post you made about anemones and found it most informative.

Actually, what I'm referring to is indoor raising of the biggest shrimp of them all, P. monodon, otherwise known as the black tiger shrimp.

I have not yet found any information on them or any other kind of shrimp caught or farm-raised for consumption purposes as far as raising in salt-water aquariums is concerned. There are some facilities across the world (beyond indoor hatcheries, which are more common) that are raising indoors, but these are multi-million dollar establishments with acres of space and investors to boot. I have a personal project that I am preparing for that is much much smaller in scope, and is starting as an experimental stage even smaller, which would be where the world of the indoor salt-water aquariums would come in. Gotta start small and get the ball rollin', if you catch my drift. ;)

Sorry that I didn't properly frame the questions to begin with, but it was a hurried post and I knew I was missing key parts. A quick re-read should make me look a little less like a fresh newbie.

But yeah, my first question is more regarding the larval stages. I will be needing to culture certain phytoplankton as well as raising brine shrimp larvae, and these will need to be suspended in the water. At the same time, the water quality will need to be as pure as can be to ensure that the shrimp larvae are not collecting debris, being poisoned by ammonia and everything else like that. The water quality bit is nothing new to the salt-water hobbyist I'm sure (I used to have two oscars in a fresh-water tank if it helps hehe), but my upmost concern would be to ensure that the powerhead (right term?) isn't sucking in the shrimp larvae to the protein skimmer. Although not as important, as their levels could be monitored and they could be replaced frequently, is a question if the protein skimmer will actually skim the phytoplankton as well as all the bad gunk. The good news, I would think, is that the phytoplankton should work to keep the water quality more pure...

The second question is more regarding the protein skimmer itself and how I should begin determining this. I figured that those with fish-only tanks would have an idea of the commonly-kept fish with the biggest biological load, so I could find a baseline on the minimum power of a protein skimmer to apply to the size of my tanks and then adjust up from.

Gotta get to bed, but thanks again for the welcome and feel free to ask any questions if it helps!

[Ninong]

I thought you were thinking of raising ornamental shrimp. However, if you google Penaeus monodon, you will find lots and lots of information but virtually all of it is geared toward commercial aquaculture on a large scale.

Good luck!

[monodon]

Well yeah, I've been reading this stuff and had said something about this in my post.

What I'm wondering though are a couple of specific things that I've been asking about... does anyone know the answers to my questions? I'm sure working with phytoplankton is a common thing in aquariums, as well as knowing which are the fish commonly kept in a salt-water aquarium that have the biggest biological load...

[BlueHalo]

first off you wont want a skimmer, and you certainly do not want water as clean and pure as the ocean, the damage caused by water motion is what destroys and maims most of the hatch, a specialized tank should be used to keep them in suspension with the lowest flow rate possible. Water needs to be below ocean salt concentrations and the water needs to be "dirty" but not toxic. A good few hours reading southeast Asian farming forums would probably answer your questions better

Hi, new to this site, found it while searching for salt-water forums and this one seemed to be the best one!

First, I should explain briefly some background for my question(s). I'm preparing for raising some salt-water shrimp, indoors and on a very small scale. I expect a lot of overlapping between the world of salt-water aquariums to happen, and a lot of information I need isn't covered by aquaculture, since I'm only working with a couple square meters for a personal project.

One of the main questions I'm having right now is concerning the protein skimmer and the larval stages of the shrimp. The larval stages, especially at first, will be really tiny, and they'll be feeding on phytoplankton and the nauplii of brine shrimp. What is the best way to make sure these things won't get sucked into the protein skimmer, while still keeping the water as clean and as close to oceanic quality as possible? I'm sure I can find the answer by researching more into commercial hatchery procedures, because they replace a lot of the water every day, but thought to ask here in the meantime.

Also, I'm trying to determine how powerful/big of a protein skimmer I'll need for the grow-out process. Not going to be much information specific to salt-water shrimp on this obviously, but I thought I'd ask what some of the fish species in the fish-only salt-water tanks would have some of the biggest biological loads, to help develop a frame of reference, since clearly shrimp are going to have a big one, especially since I'll be wanting to stock as many as I can in the same space.

Any thoughts on all of this would be excellent. Feel free to ask any questions to help with this, as I had to be rushed in making this and am sure I missed something. I'm sure I'll have more questions too, especially as I start to find out more specifics about building the tanks.

[monodon]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

A good few hours reading southeast Asian farming forums would probably answer your questions better

Do you know of any links to ones that are in English? That would definitely be interesting...

The reason I am asking here is because this will be done in acrylic tanks that will be sitting in the living room, and so everything involved with managing the tanks will be the same equipment used with any salt-water aquarium. I'm not expecting to find any information here about raising the shrimp themselves, but am only looking for insight on questions that cross-over. ;) The fact is that there is a vacuum of information on doing this on a small, aquarium-size scale, and even though I'll be doing my best to figure out how to go about it, having input from those who have experience with salt-water aquariums will definitely remove some unknowns and hopefully avoid unnecessary mistakes.

first off you wont want a skimmer

I had a feeling that protein skimming during the early larval stages might not work, which is why I was asking about it, seeing if anyone who works with other kinds of larvae or phytoplankton would know.

Is the only reason due to the motion damage? I went through the best resource I've found yet on hatchery operations, and saw that the salt-water coming in should be filtered to one micron. Of course, I'd be starting with RO water and be adding, most likely, Red Sea salt, so I shouldn't have to worry about what they are trying to filter out. Salinity is recommended to be between 25 to 36 ppt, is that lower than oceanic water? When you say dirty, are you referring to concentrations of things like ammonia and nitrates? If so, this is because you would want to be able to support the phytoplankton being fed to the larvae, correct?

Anyways, the most common thing to do, it seems, is to start with the tank only filled half-way, and then, as they are fed more, to bring up the volume, and then water exchange starts when they get to the late zoeal stage or when a problem happens with too high ammonia or pH or something similar, and then water exchange starts. Sound right?

Thanks for your help on getting me to look closer at all of that. Regarding protein skimming, or some kind of filtration, though, it will be necessary later on, since I'll be working with a closed system and can't just discard water and exchange it with new salt-water (that'd get expensive).
What are some of the highest biological loads salt-water hobbyists come across?

[BlueHalo]

Ill have to look for links, if your trying to achieve only a segment of the water cycle it will get expensive, you are trying to establish an extremely delicate proposition in a mere drop of sterile water, the ocean is huge and works in harmony for a breeding ground, a reefugium would be a good start, grape caulerpa is used in prawn farms for its rapid growth and detoxifying effects, got to run, see ya

[monodon]

Actually, my interest is in achieving as much of a natural balance as possible, and had already considered a mangrove refugium... Anyways, a lot of commerical hatcheries are indoors, so more research I'll be doing on that...

Mostly interested in the protein skimmer question for the grow-out of the post-larvae.

[BlueHalo]

Actually, my interest is in achieving as much of a natural balance as possible, and had already considered a mangrove refugium... Anyways, a lot of commerical hatcheries are indoors, so more research I'll be doing on that...

Mostly interested in the protein skimmer question for the grow-out of the post-larvae.

personally I think the skimmer would be perhaps useful for oxygenation and there are easier ways to do that, skimming the water would deny a food source, algae growth is going to be your friend in this, it wont be a show tank and the lighting isnt going to be high

[monodon]

Thanks for your thoughts, I wasn't set on a protein skimmer but thought some kind of filtration would be necessary, especially as a lot of shrimp shoved together could be kind of messy... I guess I'll just have to do some more reading, hopefully find some info about indoor facilities that are doing the grow-out and see how they are approaching it on a larger scale...

Thanks again for your help!

[BlueHalo]

undergravel,bioballs,filter socks and a sulfur denitrator maybe? or for get the whole salt thing and try these Macrobrachium rosenbergii giant fresh water prawns (taste's better than lobster) good luck with your project and keep posting as this is very interesting

[monodon]

I'll definitely be looking into those fresh water prawns (will be getting into mud crabs eventually as well ), but I'm afraid there's no turning back on this monodon kick.

Thanks for the luck and the encouragement to keep posting here, and I'll definitely be doing so. Yesterday I did some smarter searching on enclosed grow-out racetracks with limited water exchange, looking for information on doing it more the way you're talking about, and I found a couple things that looked promising. Not specific info yet but a reference to stocking 35/m2 with limited water-exchange (only to replace condensation), and a place in Maryland that is working enclosed as well. The main thing I'm wondering is just how this would work because I'm used to the idea, from raising oscars, that you can't just let it all sit in there like that without waste chemicals getting lethal, but of course, like you said, we aren't talking display tanks, and all that plankton should help balance it out... definitely intrigued in working with refugiums of mangrove and looking more into grape caulerpa for the same purpose...

I'm also looking more into doing the experimental setup as more of an artificial indoor pond than an acrylic tank. I have a feeling it will be much easier and cheaper to do it this way, should hold the water better too.... the idea is to build a wooden frame and drop in a good liner. Still researching into this of course...

Had some info about the hatchery process and one more question about protein skimming, but I'll have to catch up on that a bit later. ;)