how often should I test water?

[craqerjaq]

I'm in the middle of letting my tank cycle and the past couple days I've been testing for pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, calcium, magnesium, phosphate, and alkalinity (everything I have a test kit for).

I'm wondering how often I should check each? I know it doesn't need to be daily for all of them but I can't remember what all needs to be checked for changes or spikes.

So far everything seems to be holding their levels but I'm not sure what to expect...so what should I be on the lookout for?

[Ninong]

This very much depends on whether you started with fully-cured live rock or not. If you used fully-cured live rock, your initial cycle could be over in only a few days. If you used uncured live rock, it could take a few weeks.

If you tell me what your ammonia and nitrite readings have been (in chronological order), I can tell you where you are and what to expect next. Then I can tell you what to test for and how often.



P.S. -- I'm not just interested in what your tests showed today, I want to know ALL of your ammonia and nitrite readings. In other words, Day One Ammonia = X and Nitrite = X, Day Two Ammonia & Nitrite, etc.

[craqerjaq]

well I was told that the rock was sitting in their tanks for like a month...but that's taking their word for it. I don't know how to tell or if there is even a way to tell if it was fully cured or not. I am guessing I have only about 30 lbs of LR and haven't found a good place to get any more. Debating if I should order some online or not (shipping would push the cost to that of the LFS I would think...I only would get 20-30 lbs more). I doubt I'll ever find anyone locally that would be wanting to get rid of any. SCRATCH THAT! just found a store that shut down and has tons of fully cured LR for sale and he told me he could do 3 bucks a pound...45 min drive away

As for current levels...I can't say I've been keeping a written record of any levels but 2 days ago ammonia was around .25 ppm (didn't check anything yesterday as I was pretty sick) today ammonia still seems to be at .25 ppm. Nitrite has always seemed to be consistent at around .05 ppm. as for 3-5 days ago since I received the test kits...I'm not sure exactly what the ammonia level first was but it was low maybe a little lower than it is now but I can't be certain.

[Ninong]

$3/lb for decent, fully-cured live rock sounds like a good deal.

The reason I asked for your tests results in chronological order was so that I could answer your question about where you are in the cycle. I need to see what's going up and what's going down. You really should record all of your test results somewhere, either in a cheapy notebook or online using Reefland's nifty Aquarium Log feature. This is important for a variety of reasons but it's very important during the set-up stage. You have no idea what's going on if you don't have a history to refer back to. Later on you will be able to use this to spot any trends that may be developing. For example, you will be able to see if your magnesium is falling.

Ammonia should be undetectable. However, most hobby-level ammonia test kits are unreliable below 0.50 ppm. That's why it would be important to have a chronological history of your nitrite and nitrate readings.

Good luck picking up some new live rock. After you have added this new live rock to your tank, begin recording your test results twice a week for a couple of weeks. After you post those results, we can talk about where you are.

[craqerjaq]

ok...well I got like 40 lbs...so I have a total of 70 lbs or so which almost seems like too much given the small space I have but it was hard to pass up.

my concerns about the rock though...it was in freezing cold water. they had a few hundred pounds of rock from after they closed their pet store sitting in a huge bin of saltwater in their basement...being it winter and in MN...well yeah...does that affect the rock? I can't see how anything like worms or pods would survive but anything else I just don't know much about. tank looks good though I think.

I could still use another inch of sand...I would guess I'm about 2 inches deep now or so...gotta wait till lfs gets more in stock.

about the testing...the nitrate kit I have seems hard to differentiate between lvls but it looked like it was about 5 ppm.

as for how the levels change...is there any pattern that's consistant with new tanks? any signs I should be aware of? I'll start to keep track of levels from now on. How often do I need to check ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, is that a daily thing? What about the other testing...how often should I be checking levels while I'm getting everything going?

also wondering if adding more than double the LR load will change anything in my tank...at least anything bad or set backs it could cause?

[Ninong]

This was your 55-gal tank before when I posted this: "I think you could use a little more. Maybe a third more than what you have already."



This is your 55-gal tank now:


One of the biggest problems with using a standard size 55-gal tank as a reef tank is that the small front-to-back dimension restricts your options when it comes to placement of the live rock. You are just about forced to simply stack it against the back wall of the tank.

Yes, you now have what could be called "more than enough." I can't tell from your photo, but here is what you want to try to achieve. You need to build as many "holes" or "caves" as you possibly can so that your fish will have places to hide and to sleep. These "caves" should have more than one entrance. In other words, they need an escape route. You may have that already. My eyesight is not very good and I'm only looking at a picture.

[Ninong]

ok...well I got like 40 lbs...so I have a total of 70 lbs or so which almost seems like too much given the small space I have but it was hard to pass up.

You have plenty, let's put it that way.

I did the same thing when I started my 120-gal tank. I ordered 150 lbs of live rock and the vendor shipped me at least 175 lbs. He didn't even weigh the rock because he didn't own a scale, he just filled three boxes. The air freight shipment (including cardboard boxes) was billed as 191 lbs. It was way too much live rock for my tank. I removed 25 lbs shortly thereafter and gave it to a friend.

(The rock I got was EXTREMELY nice, fully-cured live rock from a guy who was just starting up a part-time operation out of his basement. I was his very first long-distance customer. He had to wait a couple of days to get Delta Air to approve his application to ship via air freight. I paid only $4.25/lb for fully-cured live rock and he actually gave me at least 25-30 lbs of extra live rock FREE. Unfortunately, he went out of business within a year. I ordered 10 lbs of live sand at only $2.50/lb. It was supposed to be included with the live rock order. He forgot to include it. So he shipped it a few days later via FedEx overnight at no additional shipping charges. That shipment weighed 14 lbs according to the FedEx billing. That was back in 2003. Delta Air freight was only $96 for 191 lbs from Columbia, SC to New Orleans, LA back then.)

my concerns about the rock though...it was in freezing cold water. they had a few hundred pounds of rock from after they closed their pet store sitting in a huge bin of saltwater in their basement...being it winter and in MN...well yeah...does that affect the rock?

It's basically dead rock at this point, except that the bacteria will recover in no time at all.

I can't see how anything like worms or pods would survive...

They're all dead.

I could still use another inch of sand...

Might be better to add this before adding any fish or any other livestock.

as for how the levels change...is there any pattern that's consistant with new tanks?

Yes, especially if they started with uncured live rock. Ammonia rises first, then nitrite rises. As nitrite rises, ammonia falls. Then as nitrite starts to fall, nitrate rises. The initial cycle is over when ammonia is undetectable and nitrite is either undetectable are almost undetectable (0.01 ppm or less) and nitrate has fallen down to a reasonable level (say 25 ppm or less). You can add hardy fish once nitrate drops to 50 ppm. You will want to wait until it drops to 25 ppm before adding hardy corals. Wait until it drops to 10 ppm before adding SPS corals.

any signs I should be aware of?

Sure, lots of them. Tell us what you see and we'll tell you whether you should freak out or not.

I'll start to keep track of levels from now on. How often do I need to check ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, is that a daily thing?

Test every three or four days in the beginning, tapering off to once a week and then, eventually, once a month.

What about the other testing...how often should I be checking levels while I'm getting everything going?

Assuming you used normal saltwater and followed the instructions in preparing it, you don't have to check anything while you're cycling the tank other than ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and probably pH. Obviously you will want to maintain appropriate temperature. You can start testing for calcium, alkalinity and magnesium after your tank has cycled and before you add any fish or corals.

also wondering if adding more than double the LR load will change anything in my tank...at least anything bad or set backs it could cause?

Yes, it changed a lot. Mainly because it was rock for icy water. Now you have to just be patient and wait to see what happens. Do not rush things at this point.

If you want to add more sand, think about doing that soon. Do NOT even think about adding anything alive to this tank for at least another three weeks no matter what your tests show.

[craqerjaq]

I'm in no hurry to add the fish I know it will take time...I was just worried about whether or not the rock I bought today was worth it. you called it dead more but as far as the whole...is it denitrification or something, that the LR provides...I won't need to worry right?

what is it exactly that makes LR "live" as opposed to "dead"? It's the bacteria stuff right? not the hitch hikers that come along with it, correct?

if you look close in that pic there is a sponge on one of the rocks...I'm guessing that's dead too? or does something like that come back...or should I just pick it off the rock?

there's also the remnants of something bright orange on one of the new rocks I got...not sure what was on it but looks like something used to be attached to it.

[Ninong]

...you called it dead more but as far as the whole...is it denitrification or something, that the LR provides...I won't need to worry right?

what is it exactly that makes LR "live" as opposed to "dead"? It's the bacteria stuff right? not the hitch hikers that come along with it, correct?

This is what I said about your live rock: "It's basically dead rock at this point, except that the bacteria will recover in no time at all."

This is what I said when you asked if anything like worms or pods would survive: "They're all dead."

Put those two answers together and you have the answer to your question, "What is it exactly that makes LR live?"

It's not only the bacteria, it's everything that is alive, both inside the live rock and on the surface of the live rock. The macroalgae, sponges, or other large "hitchhikers" on the surface of the live rock are not important. What is important is the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria and the zillions of tiny critters (a wide variety of microcrustaceans) and larger (visible) wormy critters (polychaetes in all sizes) that inhabit the live rock. It is the death of all of this organic life that causes uncured live rock to give off ammonia.

Live rock has nitrifying bacteria on the surface and inside the live rock in areas that receive some oxygen. It also has denitrying bacteria deep inside the live rock where oxygen is lacking. The populations of bacteria will recover. The other populations have been devastated. The condition of the live rock you purchased can only be described as "dead" live rock. It's not nearly as bad as live rock that was out of water for a month but it's not exactly what one would expect when purchasing decent live rock.

Once again, this "dead" live rock that you just purchased will eventually recover in your tank, especially when it is placed in contact with decent live rock. The populations of critters (not just bacteria, but critters, too) that inhabit your better live rock will expand to take advantage of the new real estate that is now available, once it's ready for occupancy. This takes time, that's all. Just time and patience.

As I previously said, $3/lb for decent, fully-cured live rock would be a good deal. You didn't get decent, fully-cured live rock, so you will have to be the judge of its value. It will recover over time. Twelve to eighteen months from now, no one will know the difference anyway.

...or does something like that come back...or should I just pick it off the rock?

As Forest Gump's momma said, "Live rock is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get and you never know what might survive." Just leave it alone and see what happens. Just be patient and wait for this rock to recover some in your tank before adding livestock. Your test results will tell us how things are going.

[craqerjaq]

I know the rock has been around in their store for a while so it's about the farthest from new rock...but my tank is full and it didn't cost much and depending on how fast all the critters I already have reproduce...we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I do though have plenty of little nooks and crannys for fish to hide in so that shouldn't be a problem at all. I do need to stop at petco and see if they have sand in yet so I can get another inch before fish but u said a good 3 weeks to wait now anyway so there's plenty of time.

I think for now I'm good to go...just a waiting game

[Ninong]

I do though have plenty of little nooks and crannys for fish to hide in so that shouldn't be a problem at all.

That's good. It's hard to tell from a photograph.

[craqerjaq]

since I got no new living critters with the rock...would that be something to look into buying? I know I saw at least one site that sold all that stuff for startup...detrivore kit or something like that. I'm not sure how fast things like the bristleworms multiply or if they even do in the tanks...I couldn't have more than 5 or 6 total in my tank. I have what I believe to be amphipods...but I don't think I've seen anything else. Not really sure how many I should have of those types of things...I guess it couldn't hurt to get more right?

then again...that starter kit alone is 70 bucks plus prob another 40 for shipping...not so sure I want to buy that if I don't have to.

[Ninong]

You have to decide for yourself what you want to spend money on and when. All of this stuff can get expensive in a hurry. I think you should think about adding a little more sand first.

One of the main reasons that it's always a good idea to wait before adding live fish to your tank is to allow any amphipods and copepods (that hopefully came on/in your live rock) to have a chance to establish themselves and multiply without the threat of predation.

The 12 baby bristleworms (Eurythoe complanata) that I received from Inland Aquatics as part of my detritivore kit were all 1" long. Within six weeks, some of them were three inches long. After three or four months, I was taking photos of 6" long bristleworms. And I probably had several dozen bristleworms within a year. They are capable of both sexual and asexual reproduction.

PacketsofKetchup is just starting up a 55-gal reef tank and he is fortunate enough to live very, very near to Inland Aquatics. You can read what he has to say about the detritivore kit he purchased from Inland Aquatics in this thread.

A lot of the "good stuff" (meaning critters) comes in on high quality live rock and real live sand. I spread out plastic sheets on the table so that I could unpack my live rock and take a picture of it before I put it in my tank. I had live amphipods and copepods jumping all over the table. So I was very fortunate in that respect. Still, a few weeks later, I ordered detritivore kits from both Inland Aquatics and IPSF. (Just Inland would have been sufficient.) And I ordered small amounts of real live sand from five different sources over the next several months.

[craqerjaq]

Yeah I read that post before that's how I knew about the kit. This made me think of something though...one of the pet stores here I saw a little bottle of some kind of pod I think...like 2000 in a bottle...they looked alive so I'm guessing it wouldn't be a bad idea (didn't catch a price). Is that common for them to just come in bottles?

[Ninong]

You would have to check yourself to see what they're selling in a bottle. I know that there are some places that sell live copepods but nothing like that is available down here.

[craqerjaq]

I'll have to stop at the store...I swear I remember something about "red" something...I believe they were copepods. I think I'll get one if they still have it there. All I remember is a little bottle sitting on a littled lighted spinning mirror thing so it lit up all of the tiny things in the bottle...caught my eye

HAHA here is what it was...Tigger-Pods - Live Jumbo Copepods

[craqerjaq]

and I picked a bottle up...it has a sticker on it saying double density 2k-4k pods. they all look lively once the bottle warmed up...should be a nice addition.

do I need to feed these things? their website is trying to sell other bottles of food for these things but idk if I can get that or not locally. I don't know if I have any algae yet in my tank so I'm not sure if I should put them in right away or keep them in cold storage for a little while...what do you think?

[Ninong]

I'm not familiar with that particular product, so I won't comment on the product itself. The company, however, has a very good reputation.

If they survive and multiply in your tank, you should be able to see them all over the place after dark. Just wait at least an hour after all the lights are out (including room lights) and then check your tank. A red flashlight would be best but even if all you have is a regular white flashlight, you can still check for copepods. It's just that as soon as you turn on the flashlight, they will scurry away. So be prepared to look fast.

P.S. -- Since you have no fish in your system at this time, I would simply dump the entire bottle into the tank. No sense keeping them in the refrigerator.

Remember, copepods eat phytoplankton. It may be necessary for you to begin dosing some sort of phyto if you want to maintain a really large population of copepods in your system.

I had a lot of copepods and amphipods (all all sorts of other 'pods') that came in on my excellent live rock. In addition, live copepods and amphipods were included in both of my detritivore kits -- one from Inland Aquatics and one from IPSF. That was the extent of my live copepod additions.

Every time I checked my tank late at night, there was more activity going on than you could possibly imagine. I did begin dosing D.T.'s live phytoplankton mainly for my tridacnid clams. Also because I was stupid enough to try two dozen Manila clams in my sand bed. I got those from IPSF when I ordered my detritivore kit from them. Turned out to be a total waste of money.

If I had done a search of Reef Central in advance, before ordering the cute little clams, I would have learned that virtually nobody keeps them alive more than say six to 10 months. Mine did great from the very start, as far as I could tell. All of them buried themselves in the sand bed within 24 hours after being added to the tank. The first deaths started about three months later. All of them were dead within about nine months. When they die, they rise up to the top of the sand bed at night. Anyway, that's sort of off topic. For anyone else reading this, those cute little sand bed clams can't survive in your typical home reef aquarium. We just don't have "the right stuff" for them.

[craqerjaq]

I edited the post as u were replying lol...

"do I need to feed these things? their website is trying to sell other bottles of food for these things but idk if I can get that or not locally. I don't know if I have any algae yet in my tank so I'm not sure if I should put them in right away or keep them in cold storage for a little while...what do you think?"

[Ninong]

I edited the post as u were replying lol...

"do I need to feed these things? their website is trying to sell other bottles of food for these things but idk if I can get that or not locally. I don't know if I have any algae yet in my tank so I'm not sure if I should put them in right away or keep them in cold storage for a little while...what do you think?"

I kept revising my post above to include answers to all of the questions I expected you might ask. All you have to do now is go back and reread my post above.