To use filter pads or not

[Monte455]

I have a 55 gallon reef set up with a wet dry filter system, question is should I remove the filter pads. I still plan on running the skimmer, bio balls, carbon, and phos pad. My thoughts are that I can recirculate much of the particulate matter through the tank which will allow the filter feeders to do what they do best. There is also a refugium in the sump to grow macro algae and such in. Thoughts and expiriences in running a sump filter system with out the filter pads is appreciated.

[gregony]

Why do you want to run the bio-balls? The bio-balls are great at nitrification, but don't offer any denitrification potential to speak of. For fish only, probably not a big deal, for reef tanks nitrates are enemy number one.
The filter pads probably will have little effect on your filter feeders. Just make sure you turn off the skimmer when you feed the tank - if that's your concern. Filter pads catch large particulates that can't be skimmed and protect your skimmer and return pump in the process. The microbial foods that the filter feeders consume pretty much pass through most filter pads. You can always remove the filter pads when you feed the tank. A lot of people run their sumps with nothing but a filter sock on the inlet to the sump (for large particulates and noise control), and a skimmer. (They just use sumps for convenience.)
If you put a refugium with macroalgae in your sump you probably wouldn't need a phosphate filter, the algae will consume most of the phosphate and will consume most of the nitrates as well. If you still need more phosphate removal, I don't know what to recommend. I've heard the pads don't work. I used Phos-zorb once, a long time ago, and as I recall, it also didn't appear to do anything. Other people use it and it works for them. There are lots of other phosphate absorbing media out there that perhaps someone else could chime in on. The bigger reef tank guys seem to use it more than the smaller reef tank guys cause smaller reef tank guys can always reduce it with more frequent water changes. Water changes for 200 and 400 gallon tanks are somewhat less appealing, hence more elaborate water conditioning schemes such as phosphate reactors, etc.

[Parrothead]

+1 for Gregony, lose the bio balls, your live rock and live sand is your biological filter

[Monte455]

Ok, I can do without the bio-balls - no big deal they were pretty un-appealing anyway, but it seemed like every wet dry system had them in some way or another, perhaps they were thinking it was assisting the system in some way. I had heard they just clog up over time. I really don't have much large particulate waste to speak of, right now tank load is minimal with only 1 yellow head goby, 1 purple Pseudochormis, 1 clownfish (doesn't everyone have one, LOL!), 1 Green Chromis, 6 Turbo Snails, 5 Red Leg Reef Hermit Crabs, 1 Pencil Urchin, 1 Sand Sifting Sea Star, 1 Emeral Mythrax Crab, 1 Sabae Anenome (which never seems to latch on to anything, and unless carefully placed tends to bounce around the tank with the flow), about a handful of Halemeda in the display, and about 2 handfuls of Calapera (doubt I spelled that right, the Bubble Tip Macro Algae, like small grapes) in the sump.

As for current water measurements, Amonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - 0, Phosphate - .5 (improved by .5 after adding the phos pad, was hoping to get to zero, but may try some other products that have had better luck for others like chemi-pure other other top end product with good ratings by most), Calcium - 450, DKH - 9, Salinity - 1.024, and Temp - 82 day (MH lights, but working on better airflow through the canopy and light fixture - only had one 120 mm fan with 2 250 watt MH and 4 65 watt CF lamps) 80 night.

I have no problem algae, and am dosing daily with Purple Up to encourage my Coraline growth. I plan on upgrading to a 90 Gallon in the next few months, and will build all of the plumbing from scratch, including the wet/dry sump/refuge (which will probably be this old 55 gallon). I have several layers of standard blue/white filter pad material along with a couple of fluval 405 sponges, carbon sock, phos pad, and 6-8 inches of bio balls in my current 10 gallon sump/refuge. I think I going to take out a layer each week between testing to see if there is a spike in any level, if I get to the bottom and still 0'd on all, then it works without all that extra maintainance of rinsing or replacing those items once in a while.

A friend of mine also has a 55 that he just bought a set up from someone else who was leaving the hobby, tank, lights, filter, gravel, and live rock. I was curious to understand how that system worked with the filter as it only had one of the Marineland Emperor Bio Wheel hang on tank filters and a Sea Clone 100 skimmer. He had lower Phosphate than I did before I added the Phos Pad. He added one to his system (granted when placed in that filter the pad is more passive, as water can pass around it), but his nitrates are up, but not dangerous. He has some hair algae issues currently, but is treating with animals that eat it and a small algae scrubber set up. He has an obviously large population of copeopods in his display tank (not an alarming level, but enough that anything that feeds on them is pretty well fed), and this may be in part to the algae scrubber set up, but it is really only in its second week of operation currently and does not have a thick heavy build up of "Carpet" algae.

Will update the post after I remove the last of the filter pads to let everyone know if it works or not. l also noticed that some reef sumps only have the inlet sock, and a bubble reducing sponge for mechanical filtration, so it must work some how, I just need to make sure that my biological filtration is happening in the LR, Sand Bed, and Refuge, and not send my levels skyrocketing by removing all the filter pads at one time.

[Parrothead]

Monte, you don't mention a skimmer anywhere, you do have one right?? If you don't that could be the difference in the 2 tanks, also remove the bio balls slowly from your system, it sounds like it's been up a while, don't want to rush it and have your rock and sand playing catch. SLOW AND EASY will win the race, trust me

[Monte455]

Monte, you don't mention a skimmer anywhere, you do have one right?? If you don't that could be the difference in the 2 tanks, also remove the bio balls slowly from your system, it sounds like it's been up a while, don't want to rush it and have your rock and sand playing catch. SLOW AND EASY will win the race, trust me

Actually have a Sea Clone 100 for the skimmer. Removing all the pad material and bio balls all at once was not in my plan, definately dont want to shock the system.

[Parrothead]

Actually have a Sea Clone 100 for the skimmer. Removing all the pad material and bio balls all at once was not in my plan, definately dont want to shock the system.

In addition to removing the pads and the bio balls,

I would look into upgrading your skimmer, I used to run an odyessea P75 on my 55, very lightly stocked 55, and it wasn't doing enough, very similiar to the sea clones, I upgraded to a AquaC remora and have received excellent results, JMHO

[gregony]

Your bio-load, fish wise, isn't light, it's actually about right for a 55g reef tank. You might be able to add one or two more small fish, if you got a better skimmer, but not any more than that. If you want to go to a 90g (I have an empty one sitting next to my 40g that I'll get running someday), you'll absolutely need a better skimmer then.
In regards to the phosphates,it sounds like your friend might be feeding his tank differently, or may be using different food, or may have different water flow, etc. All these things affect phosphates. Also, phosphate test kits are really hard to read and there is much debate on their accuracy anyways. Algae are the best phosphate filter you can have, hence the popularity of refugiums. If you don't have any algae problems, then your phosphates are probably OK no matter what your reading is. If the phosphate pad worked for you (you lucky dog), then maybe that's all you will need. The caulerpa in your sump will explode if you have any phosphates - that's the only test you really need if you keep your bio-load down. You're lighting the caulerpa right? It needs reasonably bright light to do its thing. Remember that caulerpa has a limited lifespan (like all living things), if it starts to look sickly, harvest the bad looking stuff so it doesn't release the nutrients back into the water, and leave the good looking stuff. More will grow quickly. The caulerpa in my display tank grows an inch a day easy. I have no measurable phosphate, but obviously I have phosphate, because the algae won't grow without it.

[Parrothead]

Your bio-load, fish wise, isn't light, it's actually about right for a 55g reef tank. You might be able to add one or two more small fish, if you got a better skimmer, but not any more than that. If you want to go to a 90g (I have an empty one sitting next to my 40g that I'll get running someday), you'll absolutely need a better skimmer then.
In regards to the phosphates,it sounds like your friend might be feeding his tank differently, or may be using different food, or may have different water flow, etc. All these things affect phosphates. Also, phosphate test kits are really hard to read and there is much debate on their accuracy anyways. Algae are the best phosphate filter you can have, hence the popularity of refugiums. If you don't have any algae problems, then your phosphates are probably OK no matter what your reading is. If the phosphate pad worked for you (you lucky dog), then maybe that's all you will need. The caulerpa in your sump will explode if you have any phosphates - that's the only test you really need if you keep your bio-load down. You're lighting the caulerpa right? It needs reasonably bright light to do its thing. Remember that caulerpa has a limited lifespan (like all living things), if it starts to look sickly, harvest the bad looking stuff so it doesn't release the nutrients back into the water, and leave the good looking stuff. More will grow quickly. The caulerpa in my display tank grows an inch a day easy. I have no measurable phosphate, but obviously I have phosphate, because the algae won't grow without it.

Greg,

When I said "lightly stocked" I was referring to mine not his

[Monte455]

It seems to me the only way to test my skimmers efficiency would be to do a TDS (Total Disolved Solids) test, right? All my other levels are 0'd out except the Phosphate, which I cut my level in half by adding the phos pad, but would really like to achieve 0 someday. My calupera is lighted by a CFL bulb, which I may upgrade to 2 CFL's (90 watt equivilents, in the 2600K range) and has the same inch or so of explosive growth per day as some of you mentioned. I only have the calupera in the sump, as I had heard it is a nusience in the display tank because of its explosive growth. But I do have Halameda in both the display and sump, both achieve the same goal by being macro algaes. All of my fish are small, as in they will be 3 inches or less when fully grown, only exception would be the yellow tang I expect to add someday. I am specifically looking for tiny fish this round, the ones that dont appear to be in the tank until you look closely and see them amongst the corals, but am finding it hard to find multiple species that will get along, despite their size being so small. Such as my yellow headed goby and pseudochromis, they dont get along, and the pseudo is bullying the yellow head as much as possible, but it does not appear to be stressing the yellow head as it has been a month now and he's still alive, he just stays in his burrow until the pseudo is hiding for the night, then he is out and activly working on my sand bed.

This week I removed my first layer of filter sponges and maximized the flow through the refuge vs. the filter pads. Checked my levels, still maintaining 0's. We'll so how this pans out when I remove the next layer next week, if levels still maintain I will continue until all the filter pads and bio balls are out.

[gregony]

The pseudo will bully just about everything (except maybe triggers, lionfish, groupers, and frogfish - which of course will eat the pseudo).
Give the macroalgae some time. The interesting thing about cyano problem posts is that everyone's water is so much better than mine. I can't help but feel jealous. And I don't even have any cyano.

You can analyze cyano to death, but there are a few things that I believe (in my tank anyway) made a big difference in getting rid of the cyano. An awesome light fixture (Current USA Nova Extreme Pro 6xT5HO), A decent (but average but way better than a seaclone) skimmer (CPR Backpack 2), a shallow rocky substrate (though everyone else swears by DSB's), and patience. Remove large mats as they appear. Let the small ones "burn" themselves out. Don't overfeed the tank. Don't try and outsmart the cyano. I truly believe its a process and I think the tank will grow a natural defense against small amounts of it (did you know there are tiny critters that eat cyanobacteria, imagine that, God must like reefkeeping too). Just keep it trimmed down. There are physical laws at work too, if there is nothing for the cyano to construct itself with, it will eventually go away. I don't believe a TDS test will show anything you don't already know. If your nitrates are 0, but you still have cyano, then you have phosphate (cyano has to build itself with something - conservation of mass and all that). Better skimming will remove more phosphate than lesser skimming. So if everything stays the same, and you just add a more efficient skimmer, you should see an improvement. If you're planning on going bigger anyway, you could just put up with it until you get to the bigger tank or you could go ahead and get the bigger skimmer first to help with the tank you already have running. Remember, in the bigger tank, the problem will once again reappear (like magic).