Ok all you plumbing gurus

[mobrien]

Hey folks I am putting a tank together and wanted to bounce some ideas of ya.

1> My closed loops. On my closed loops I am using a AM 300 and a AM 5600. They will be returning via a manifold, then through the back wall of the tank into the display. Now the final attachment for the returns will be Locline. So that will be 3/4. Each closed loop (3) will be controlled by a Motorized ballvalve. So this is the question. 1 1/2 line will come out of the AM and up to the MBV, If it will eventually end up being 3/4 would it be fine to run the MBV's at 1 inch or should I use 1 1/2 MBV . If so why?

2> if I had two one inch drain lines feeding into a 1 1/2 drain line for its jouney to the sump, would it still have the 1 1/2 capacity rating.


thanks

mike

[Ninong]

If I had two one inch drain lines feeding into a 1 1/2 drain line for its jouney to the sump, would it still have the 1 1/2 capacity rating?

No. Two 1" pipes have less capacity than one 1.5" pipe. The two 1" pipes would give you a little less than 89% of the capacity of a single 1.5" pipe, and that's not taking friction into consideration, which would be greater with the two 1" pipes, further reducing their capacity relative to the single 1.5" pipe.

I'm not sure exactly how you are setting up your AM-3000 and AM-5600, so I'll just give you some figures to keep in mind. If you are running 1.5" pipe from the pumps, you have an area of 1.7671" -- remember the area of a circle is equal to pi times the radius squared. So, the radius of 1.5" is .75" times .75" equals .5625" times 3.14159 = 1.7671".

Here are the cross section areas for various sizes in square inches:

3/4" pipe = .4418"
1" pipe = .7854"
1.5" pipe = 1.7671"
2" pipe = 3.14159"

From the above you can see that you would need to have four 3/4" Loclines open at the same time to receive the flow from one 1.5" pipe. In truth, you would need five 3/4" Loclines open at the same time to avoid reducing the capacity of the 1.5" pipe taking friction into consideration.

[Ninong]

I just noticed your question about whether you should use 1" or 1.5" motorized ball valves. You should use 1.5" (really, really expensive). You need to use the same size as the line you are running into them -- see chart above.

[mobrien]

Thanks for the reply Ninong. Ok I get u on the drain line. Ok so assumtion sake, lol. If I assume that a 1" drain will handle a capacity of 1000 gph (sorry bad memory) so I have 2 so that would be 2000gph then reducing it into a 1 1/2 for both I would be knocking that down to arounfd 15 gph????

On the closed loop, the tank will be an L shape so its a little trick to get full coverage. I have designed that it will have 5 - 3/4" locline outputs on either side of the MBV. so that shhould handle the flow, but should the manifold and the valve be 1 1/2 or can I reduce to 1 inch at the valve, do you thik it would have any adverse effect. I will post a pic of the plumbing plan.

sorry if it looks like a map to treasure Island


mike

[mobrien]

lol you read my mind. I new that but was hoping for a different answer . I post a plan for the tank take a peek when u get a moment and tell me if you see anything else that looks wrong

take care
mike

[Ninong]

Originally posted by mobrien:

Thanks for the reply Ninong. Ok I get u on the drain line. Ok so assumtion sake, lol. If I assume that a 1" drain will handle a capacity of 1000 gph (sorry bad memory) [That's a pretty good estimate for each 1" drain, especially if you are using a Durso-type standpipe.] so I have 2 so that would be 2000gph then reducing it into a 1 1/2 for both I would be knocking that down to arounfd 15 gph????

No, it wouldn't change the capacity of the two 1" drains at all. Just remember that the two 1" drains combined already have the capacity of somewhere near 89% the capacity of a single 1.5" drain. It just means that the 1.5" drain is really capable of handling a little more than what the two 1" drains can supply.

On the closed loop, the tank will be an L shape so its a little trick to get full coverage. I have designed that it will have 5 - 3/4" locline outputs on either side of the MBV. so that shhould handle the flow, but should the manifold and the valve be 1 1/2 or can I reduce to 1 inch at the valve, do you thik it would have any adverse effect. I will post a pic of the plumbing plan.

You need to maintain 1.5" lines until such time as they feed into smaller lines with equal or greater total capacity or you will reduce your flow. If the 1.5" line is going into a MBV, the MBV must be the same size, 1.5". If the 1.5" MBV feeds into a manifold, it could have three 1" lines or five 3/4" lines without impacting the potential flow capacity. But anytime you run a 1.5" line into a single 1" line you are reducing your capacity by more than 50%.

[Ltspd]

Area = Pi x Radius Squared

Your area's need to equal or greater when split.

The mindset of keeping the pipe as large as possilbe until the last minute should NOT drive the whole project as long as the area equal or is greater than when split. You end up creating more headache and spending more money and dont gain as much as some will suggest.

Trust me I spent a whole weekend plus a good 100 bucks doing exactly that and what I ended up with at the end of the weekend was a hole in my pocket and a tired body. The gain (if any) was NOT worth the extra effort or the money spent.

[mobrien]

Ninong and paul thanks for the input. I think I will be fine on the drain as the sump is only going to be pushing about 2000 gph after all plumbing and routes. With this I have 6 - 1 inch drain line so I think I am over kill on that.

The reason I was asking about the Closed loop, was for that exact reason Paul. The closed loop pumps willbe elevated to the BH's in the back of the tank. So in reality it will come out at 1 1/2" from the pump, to the MBV approximately one foot higher thern travel horizontal until it reaches the various outputs. So the farthest out put would be 6 feet away and the closest about a foot. I have to change the pioing no matter what to 3/4 at the output, so do u think the manifold pipe would make a big difference if it were 1 inch instead of 1 1/2. The price difference between 1" and a 1 1/2 MBV is a $100, so for that it makes a difference?

all input welcome, wheres that plumbing fool Suba


thanks again


Mike

[Ltspd]

Your area's need to be equal or greater when split.



If you reduce from 1-1/2 to 1" and thats it then what ever the percentage diffrence is what you will lose. If you take the 1-1/2 and split it into (3) 1" lines then you have equal or greater area. You will lose some flow but not enough to worry about unless you have a VERY LONG run after the split.

You are wise on equalling the water level of the pumps with the tank, water seeks its own level and will help in the head lose. I plan on doing this if I ever get my tank set back up.

This is 1 one the many problems I have with the AM stuff.

[scubadude]

Originally posted by mobrien

sorry if it looks like a map to treasure Island

mike

LMAO It does look like a map to treasure island!

Hey Mike! Some setup you have mapped out there, im gonna just say that you need to be careful splitting low head series pumps up to mulitple functions with manifolds (Paul has more experience than me on this) If I was to do manifolds I would probably use some of dolphins manifolds one of these.



You really need to micro-analyze a system like this because their are soooo many variables, the best piece of advice for me to give you would be to buy Aquatic Systems Engineering by P.R. Escobal it can be purchased through Aquatic Ecosystems one of the sponsors here on Reefland, this book flat out RAWKS and I cannot see where anyone who is building a system like yours would not merit w/it.

[Ltspd]

Mike,

I am PM'ing you about this.

[mobrien]

Hey Duude nice to hear your voice, buddy. I realy dont like the dolphin manifolds (they look a little mick, My manifold will be right in line with the out puts, and going across the tank. I think its best if I do a little drawing to show it in detail.

Paul I like and have PMed u.


Mike

[mobrien]

Ok this might clear things up a bit.
Here is a condenced pic of the back of the tank. this shows you that the manifold is right at the hieght of the outputs, and only a foot up from the pump. Thier are also 5 inputs on either side of the MBV.


Ok now here is the inputs of the CL. So thier will be 5 either side of the MBV (also not that some will come from the end of the tank and some from the back). The drawing is a cut section and shows the Coast to coast overflow between the 2 corner overflows.


mike

[Ltspd]

So the motorized BV will cycle between the 5 outputs on the left and right?

If so, and you plan on using a 1" motorized BV then you will cut the flow of the pump by approx 40%.

This is 1 of the beefs I have with AM pumps, they are poor unless they have a wide open path of travel, restrict them and they are terrible. I would also be concerend about the time when the BV is in a no direction state. This will put a lot of back pressure on the pump and I would imagine it cause some problems later on down the road. If this was a Iwaki or GRI it wouldnt matter.

I might suggest killing the BV and using (2) AM pumps and cycling them. In most situations the pumps couldnt handle any load on them from head pressure in the on/off/on, but since you have the pumps close to neutral it might fly........... I did have problems with the 2 AM3000's I used to have when the power went out, they would lock up and not restart. This was supposivley fixed by a warranty seal replacment.

[mobrien]

So the motorized BV will cycle between the 5 outputs on the left and right?

yes

If so, and you plan on using a 1" motorized BV then you will cut the flow of the pump by approx 40%.

Figured and that sucks, so if you look at my plan if I ran a 1 1/2 manifold and a 1 1/2 inch MBV, then just knock down to 3/4 at the outputs, how much pressure would I be loosing.

I hear you on the AM's they did have some problems for sure. I have had 2 running for almost a year now and Kncok on wood not a problem with either lock up or leaky seals.

I thought about killing the MBV's (believe me) but with the L iI dont think I will get the random action I desire. The 5600 pump which will be one of my cl's is actually a Aqua sea not the AM series.

mike

[Ltspd]

If you have (5) 3/4" outputs then almost no loss. 5 * the area of a 3/4 = 2.20 sq in which is greater than the 1-1/2 area. My concern would be can (5) 3/4" handle the amount of water that the pump will push (can the 1-1/2 pipe......)

[mobrien]

I dough that ity will handle all the pressure being pushed by the pumps paul. The problem lies with the locline. Using it gives such mobility but you are restricted to 3/4. From testing on the MBV it seems to me that you always have water coming out either one or the other or both (if you use the L port). I think sometimes that I get to convoluted in the exact tolerences of the plumbing and forget the fact that all I want is good random flow . I think with the use of the 5600 and the 3000 (or 3 x 3000) on MBV I should get a good ammount ofof random surging. I also have the return of the sump going through a couple of Seaswirls going against the grain.

So now you have raised another question so here it is.

If you have the water returning on the CL and you know that the MBV will only be open on a given side for x amount of time and the balance of the time it is in a stage of transition. this would meant that for the majority of the time it will be restricting the amount of flow, would it once again be ok to go with a smaller MBV. or would it make more of a case for going with a 1 1/2 one?????????


thoeries, you got to love em


mike

[Ltspd]

Well I will take a SWAG at this:

If you ARE restricting the flow because you always have reduced flow either left/right or transition then maybe you are going to suffer regardless of what size MBV you have...... Your not driven by the size of the MBV but the fact that you can only push x gph through a 1-1/2" pipe and (5) 3/4" locklines. Basing this on the fact you are using a 5600 pump does the 40% loss mean anything, or does the losses accumulate, 40% of 40% etc.

Anybody got RIN's email addy?

[Ltspd]

Mike,
Your using a 5600 pump, correct. I just went to the web site and they are suppling 2" unions, which means to get the 5600 flow you have to have 2" plumbing. The area of a 2" pipe is 3.14 sq/in, the area of 1-1/2 is 1.78, roughly half.

Have you purchased these pumps yet?

I am begining to say kill the MBV, buy 3 pressure rated pumps and cycle them. Say GRI520's or Iwaki 100's.

I have to consider this one some more.

[mobrien]